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Post by Azrael on May 21, 2011 23:10:14 GMT -5
There's no love in anything you say, it genuinely worries me I understand parables and logic, I also understand that James referenced Job as if he existed, please don't twist my logic or extend it to everything. Have a nice day Here we go with that hugbox thing again. SINCE YOU DON'T SAY IT NICELY, IT ISN'T TRUE. I AM MORALLY SUPERIOR BECAUSE I WANT TO BE. You rode in on your moral high horse. I knocked you off. This is your pathetic, transparent, and pathetically transparent attempt to gain the high ground again. Here's some pointers. If you didn't start with the condescending crap, I would have kindly and patiently dealt with your concerns. But instead you had to make a show of undoing your belt to spank a wayward sinner. And thus I served you up a hot plate of STFU. You know who Jesus really didn't care for? The arrogant bone-heads who would sit there and say "Brother, I am worried for thine spiritual health. Thou art troubled and it pains me to see such sin in thee." You need to deal with your pride issue long before I need to deal with my straight-talk issue. Oh, and if you aren't particularly intelligent and are easily insulted, perhaps the internet is not the place for you. |
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Post by Paul on May 21, 2011 23:16:04 GMT -5
I don't understand what motivates you to speak to me
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Post by Paul on May 21, 2011 23:22:32 GMT -5
I am wrong about many things, I am prideful, even in false humility.
But what motivates me to speak to you is my desire that I be conformed to Christ and you as well. I probably can do better.
I defend what I understand the Bible to mean because I believe it's the word of God and I respect it highly. I hope that others respect and love it as much as I do. I don't beleive I know everything there is to know about it, I just thought that if someone else were concerned about loving God and conformity to Christ and upholding Biblical authority our conversations would be much different?
I may be wrong about almost everything other than key doctrines. But Paul admonished the Thessalonians like a tender mother. His love caused them to walk in a manner worthy of God. Nothing you've ever said to me or about the bible made me want to love Jesus more, and I cannot respect that.
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Post by davo on May 22, 2011 7:59:59 GMT -5
Azrael, please keep off the personal attacks.
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Post by Azrael on May 22, 2011 16:43:09 GMT -5
Azrael, please keep off the personal attacks. Why? Because rather than reeking of condescension and moral superiority mine are actually upfront? There have been two sides of personal attacks, and I know I didn't start it. I'm just the easy one to identify because rather than beating around the bush and talking down to somebody with vague rebuttals and patronizing comments about "I, a good and righteous man am truly troubled by your lack of love and this worries me," I actually take my gloves off and say what I mean. When somebody is snarky with me, I let them know. When somebody is snarky, attempts to correct me, and turns out to be wrong, they are getting lampooned. I am wrong about many things, I am prideful, even in false humility. But what motivates me to speak to you is my desire that I be conformed to Christ and you as well. I probably can do better. I defend what I understand the Bible to mean because I believe it's the word of God and I respect it highly. I hope that others respect and love it as much as I do. I don't beleive I know everything there is to know about it, I just thought that if someone else were concerned about loving God and conformity to Christ and upholding Biblical authority our conversations would be much different? I may be wrong about almost everything other than key doctrines. But Paul admonished the Thessalonians like a tender mother. His love caused them to walk in a manner worthy of God. Nothing you've ever said to me or about the bible made me want to love Jesus more, and I cannot respect that. You know something interesting? Christians are the only people I've ever heard cry about not being admonished with "love and kindness." When I call any of my Atheist friends out harshly, they take their lumps. The only people that manage to keep up this intellectual crybaby act are Christians who grandstand with the "Your opinions were delivered harshly so I am going to think about that and nurse my wounded ego rather than anything you said." Ironically, Christians should be the last group I should worry about offending. And I do believe I can find numerous occasions in the Bible where people spoke frankly, harshly and condemned others and did this with the blessing of God. One of them was God, more specifically the bastion of campfire love, Jesus. I seem to recall him calling some people sons of hell, broods of vipers and such. And there's a problem with expecting everybody around to play by the same rules as you simply because you prefer to play that way. My definition of love does not include coddling proud little people who shoot their mouths off, turn out to be wrong, and are left open for a little lesson they will never forget. I'm willing to accept that nothing I've ever said has made you want to love your Jesus more. Although I think that's a bit of a roundabout way to accuse me of undermining your and other people's faith. And that in itself is just a couple stops down the road from stake burning (see, I don't twist your words. I take them to their logical conclusion. This is called reductio ad absurdum, and a lot of people don't like it because it has a habit of exposing bad ideas normally concealed by careful sugarcoating and contextualization.) The point is, I believe in a God of discourse. whenever and wherever his name is being spoken, it is good. And if somebody is learning something even if they don't agree with it, then better. And if you ever meant to suggest that I made you doubt God for even a second, that would be all the confirmation I needed to know I said all the right things. Until you learn to be ok with other people challenging your ideas, you will always be stuck in the infantile stage of Christianity where you sing happy clappy hymns and talk about how awesome Jesus is with friends. Because belief and faith are two different things, and if my opinions and the way I express them about the Bible are enough to make you have a bad day, you don't have faith. At the end of the day, I don't give two flips if you respect me. I don't speak to be respected. And I can't help but notice that you haven't had anything to say about the things I raised, only the way I said them. And if your system of learning discounts the message on the basis of your feelings towards the messenger, I would like to point out that is not spiritually healthy either. If you want to be a better Christian, stop assuming you are right about everything and that people who you disagree with (and even whom are rude to you) have nothing to teach you. I think the pride issue will fix itself with that. |
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Post by Josh on May 22, 2011 18:54:19 GMT -5
I miss brent on topics like this.
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Post by Paul on May 22, 2011 22:52:15 GMT -5
Azrael, please keep off the personal attacks. Why? Because rather than reeking of condescension and moral superiority mine are actually upfront? There have been two sides of personal attacks, and I know I didn't start it. I'm just the easy one to identify because rather than beating around the bush and talking down to somebody with vague rebuttals and patronizing comments about "I, a good and righteous man am truly troubled by your lack of love and this worries me," I actually take my gloves off and say what I mean. When somebody is snarky with me, I let them know. When somebody is snarky, attempts to correct me, and turns out to be wrong, they are getting lampooned. You know something interesting? Christians are the only people I've ever heard cry about not being admonished with "love and kindness." When I call any of my Atheist friends out harshly, they take their lumps. The only people that manage to keep up this intellectual crybaby act are Christians who grandstand with the "Your opinions were delivered harshly so I am going to think about that and nurse my wounded ego rather than anything you said." I'm not at all concerned with what you're saying to me, I'm concerned that you profess Christ and profess an intellectual superiority to the majority of CHristians that have ever read and understood the Bible. And you express your version of what the bible says arrogantly and with absolutely no attempts at showing love. More on this later. Jesus said things that were absurdly harsh. And then Jesus said things like "if anyone is thirsty come to me and drink." He corrected, and he loved. You can have it both ways. Jesus died to save sinners, including the same Pharisees he had harsh words for. I assure you I care infinitely less about what you have to 'teach' me than you think. I'm not here to be blessed by your knowledge and abilities, I'm here to try and discern what the bible says. Jesus was not out to 'teach people a lesson', he was out to save the lost. If I'm as wrong as you say I am, I guess I am lost. And I guess your primary concern is putting me in my place. The Pharisees were the ones out to try and teach lessons that people will never forget. I do not mean your efforts had to be effective. I mean I have never gotten the impression at all that you care if they are effective in helping me love Jesus. Or anyone else. You use the scriptures to support your arguments more than your arguments are supported in scriptures. The bible clearly states over and over how Christians are to be marked with and filled with love. It's an explicit teaching. You cite examples of harsh words to say that you are excused from making attempts to show love. Find me the doctrines of belittling people and boasting about your intelligence for the sake of point proving. I don't actually believe any thing you say about the bible. I thoroughly enjoy hymns, and talking about how awesome Jesus is. Glorifying God is the purpose I have in mind for my life. I'm willing to die for the Glory of God, and it's the direction my life is heading. You're not even close to smart enough to make me doubt anything I believe about the bible. These things are spiritually discerned. First of all, you can't "fix" the pride issue, and that shows great ignorance. You don't fix pride. You become more like Christ, through Christ, and those things resolve themselves. I don't need to teach myself humility, I need to learn the beauty of Jesus. That's what creates humility. I've already admitted that I only know what the bible explicitly says for certain. You don't even admit that much (I base this on how you view love, and the numerous times you've talked about issues such as sexual immorality) You've not affected my faith, not sure where you got that idea. I said plenty about the things you said. Jesus and the NT authors sure appeared to speak of these events as if they happened. If the events never did happened, clearly there is no harm in believing they had. The scripture has given that impression to countless people, many much smarter than you or me. There's no reward in heaven for believing Job existed or not. It's not gonna save or condemn anyone. Love is a sign of regeneration, and the best way to spread the Gospel. Love wins. |
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Post by Radiant Magnificence Alastair on May 23, 2011 1:11:37 GMT -5
Temper tantrums on the internet.
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N/A
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by N/A on May 23, 2011 3:46:44 GMT -5
Azrael: "fighting stupid wherever I find it."
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Post by Josh on May 23, 2011 11:41:14 GMT -5
Temper tantrums on the internet. |
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Post by Azrael on May 23, 2011 12:24:02 GMT -5
Why? Because rather than reeking of condescension and moral superiority mine are actually upfront? There have been two sides of personal attacks, and I know I didn't start it. I'm just the easy one to identify because rather than beating around the bush and talking down to somebody with vague rebuttals and patronizing comments about "I, a good and righteous man am truly troubled by your lack of love and this worries me," I actually take my gloves off and say what I mean. When somebody is snarky with me, I let them know. When somebody is snarky, attempts to correct me, and turns out to be wrong, they are getting lampooned. You know something interesting? Christians are the only people I've ever heard cry about not being admonished with "love and kindness." When I call any of my Atheist friends out harshly, they take their lumps. The only people that manage to keep up this intellectual crybaby act are Christians who grandstand with the "Your opinions were delivered harshly so I am going to think about that and nurse my wounded ego rather than anything you said." I'm not at all concerned with what you're saying to me, I'm concerned that you profess Christ and profess an intellectual superiority to the majority of CHristians that have ever read and understood the Bible. And you express your version of what the bible says arrogantly and with absolutely no attempts at showing love. More on this later. Jesus said things that were absurdly harsh. And then Jesus said things like "if anyone is thirsty come to me and drink." He corrected, and he loved. You can have it both ways. Jesus died to save sinners, including the same Pharisees he had harsh words for. I assure you I care infinitely less about what you have to 'teach' me than you think. I'm not here to be blessed by your knowledge and abilities, I'm here to try and discern what the bible says. Jesus was not out to 'teach people a lesson', he was out to save the lost. If I'm as wrong as you say I am, I guess I am lost. And I guess your primary concern is putting me in my place. The Pharisees were the ones out to try and teach lessons that people will never forget. I do not mean your efforts had to be effective. I mean I have never gotten the impression at all that you care if they are effective in helping me love Jesus. Or anyone else. You use the scriptures to support your arguments more than your arguments are supported in scriptures. The bible clearly states over and over how Christians are to be marked with and filled with love. It's an explicit teaching. You cite examples of harsh words to say that you are excused from making attempts to show love. Find me the doctrines of belittling people and boasting about your intelligence for the sake of point proving. I don't actually believe any thing you say about the bible. I thoroughly enjoy hymns, and talking about how awesome Jesus is. Glorifying God is the purpose I have in mind for my life. I'm willing to die for the Glory of God, and it's the direction my life is heading. You're not even close to smart enough to make me doubt anything I believe about the bible. These things are spiritually discerned. First of all, you can't "fix" the pride issue, and that shows great ignorance. You don't fix pride. You become more like Christ, through Christ, and those things resolve themselves. I don't need to teach myself humility, I need to learn the beauty of Jesus. That's what creates humility. I've already admitted that I only know what the bible explicitly says for certain. You don't even admit that much (I base this on how you view love, and the numerous times you've talked about issues such as sexual immorality) You've not affected my faith, not sure where you got that idea. I said plenty about the things you said. Jesus and the NT authors sure appeared to speak of these events as if they happened. If the events never did happened, clearly there is no harm in believing they had. The scripture has given that impression to countless people, many much smarter than you or me. There's no reward in heaven for believing Job existed or not. It's not gonna save or condemn anyone. Love is a sign of regeneration, and the best way to spread the Gospel. Love wins. Still avoiding the points I raised? Fair enough. The encyclopedia refers to Siegfried. That doesn't make him real. I'm sure you've heard a pastor reference somebody imaginary in a sermon. You're just choosing to ignore this. And I love the condescension. You probably can't see it because you've spent your entire life talking down to people, but it's beautiful. The second somebody who claims the faith is the slightest bit rude to you, you start calling down how they obviously aren't living by faith and how there's something drastically wrong with them. All you've been tossing are random platitudes about "using scriptures to support your arguments instead of using your arguments to support scripture," or "Jesus said you have to be nice to me otherwise you're not a good Christian." I can tell you went to the Kent Hovind school of apologetics. You can find a counter-platitude to anything anybody says. And your nice little diatribe about love and Jesus hardly refutes the fact that he used harsh language and accusations against people. And comparing me to the pharisees is somewhat stupid as I am the one proposing a new idea and you are the one sticking to some half-cocked understanding of dogma and tossing aphorisms at me when I say something you don't agree with all the while gasping and appealing to some imaginary audience that I am some sort of heretic. If you don't experience doubt, not only are you stagnated in your relationship with him, you are a liar. If you don't recognize that it is perfectly acceptable to be angry at God and even oppositional to him from time to time, you haven't been reading closely. God rewards people who disagree with him. Look at Abraham at Sodom and Gomorrah. God rewards people who fight with him. Look at Jacob at Jabbok. The only thing God doesn't reward are sniveling little cowards who choose to wear their own clothes at the wedding feast. And there will be a time coming where there will be neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor freeman, man nor woman, and people who cling to their idea of God without question will be sorely disappointed. And who are you to say I do not take the Bible explicitly? I find it ironic that you make a point of saying the historicity of Job is not a faith issue when you have been making statements like the above the whole time implying that I am not true in the faith. You seem to have a very thin skin about what you believe, and that's generally a sign of insecurity. Are you sure you don't doubt? |
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Post by Paul on May 23, 2011 12:38:59 GMT -5
The Pharisees used the scriptures the same way you use them
The scriptures have dramatically changed my life, and the center point of that change has been around love and how I deal with people. This is all part of the argument, still don't see how you try and separate it.
If your best insult is that I care too much about defending my actions with how the bible tells me to live, I'm okay with that.
And not sure where you get your soteriology, but I've been saved by grace through faith. Grace is the springboard for love and the source of it. My wedding clothes aren't my knowledge or abilities, it's the Love and atonement of Jesus, and I demonstrate my faith through love. What's your excuse
God rewards those whom he loves. The reward isn't wrought from disobedience and disagreement, God works all thing together for the good of those that love God and those he has called and predestined. I am literally dumbfounded if you think disagreeing with God is what caused God to bless people.
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Post by Paul on May 23, 2011 12:49:50 GMT -5
also, last time I'm gonna say it, it's the way they talked about the people that allegedly don't exist, not just the fact that they mention their names. James counted Job as blessed. Why would James care to tell people he thought an imaginary man was blessed by God? He speaks about the outcome of the Lord's dealings toward Job (mercy and compassion, imagine that, we're back to those). What outcome is there in imaginary stories? Imaginary ones? James is saying imagine God has compassion? That's comforting. It seems to me he is saying "God has compassion, remember Job?"
He referenced the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord just before that. I don't know if there are people who don't believe in the prophets, but it seems to me he is trying to give specific examples of people who suffered and have patience. And the one he names is Job.
Thus I have faith Job existed. Your counter argument is placement in canon, something vague about how it's language makes it seem like a parable and some of his friends were jerks, or am I wrong?
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Post by Maarten on May 23, 2011 13:51:01 GMT -5
If you don't experience doubt, not only are you stagnated in your relationship with him, you are a liar. If you don't recognize that it is perfectly acceptable to be angry at God and even oppositional to him from time to time, you haven't been reading closely. I don't know where you get the idea doubt is a good thing. "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:6-8) |
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Post by Azrael on May 23, 2011 13:59:16 GMT -5
also, last time I'm gonna say it, it's the way they talked about the people that allegedly don't exist, not just the fact that they mention their names. James counted Job as blessed. Why would James care to tell be people he thought an imaginary man was blessed by God? He speaks about what the outcome of the Lord's dealings toward Job (mercy and compassion, imagine that, we're back to those). What outcome is there in imaginary stories? Imaginary ones? James is saying imagine God has compassion? That's comforting. It seems to me he is saying "God has compassion, remember Job?" He referenced the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord just before that. I don't know if there are people who don't believe in the prophets, but it seems to me he is trying to give specific examples of people who suffered and have patience. And the one he names is Job. Thus I have faith Job existed. Your counter argument is placement in canon, something vague about how it's language makes it seem like a parable and some of his friends were jerks, or am I wrong? You are wrong about a lot of things. And it is really starting to come out here. My advice? Don't reply back. Maybe people will stop laughing at you and forget what a moron you are. So let's see what you've done -Said I'm like a pharisee because.....well......I cite scripture to back up what I say. -Said I'm wrong because I....well.....I don't cite scripture to back up what I say. -Said I'm out of touch with my faith because....well.......I ridiculed you for being proud and overly quick to come down on other people when your information was wrong. -Insisted that because your interpretation of scriptures requires that you are polite (but somehow not annoyingly condescending in tone) with all people, I am somehow bound to your arbitrary interpretation (oh, wait. You backed it up with generic verses about love and fabricated some bs explanation for why Jesus flipping on people wasn't really him flipping on people -And you said that faith is based on predestin........oh. Now it's all so clear. You're one of those nutty hypercalvinists that thinks ANYBODY who disagrees with you goes to Hell. Nevermind. People like you are impossible to discuss anything with because you have presupposed all of your conclusions as inherently correct and will backargue anything to a position that you agree with, even if it makes literally no sense (as you have demonstrated above). (Also, I don't think you understand the whole referring to imaginary people thing. Just last Sunday my pastor said that Alyosha Karamazov is the ideal example of Christian faith and referred throughout the entire sermon to Alyosha as a person (I disagree with his message, personally). But reference does not presuppose existence in the physical sense. Even worse, most Biblical historical figures are dated with (at that time x historical event or point of referral) so you know when it was. Job was not. They just said he was from Uz. Where is Uz? nobody really has a good answer. May as well be "far away a long time ago." And the story did take place a "long time ago." The way Job lived was very similar to Abraham, and scholars date his existence somewhere around then. The story of Job only surfaced around 400BC, the time the Israelites were in Babylon. All other stories from the Abrahamic time period were already recorded and canonized. It pays to know a little Biblical history to go with your bizarre notion that the Bible is the only thing you need to get the full meaning of the Bible.) Oh, and I can't help but notice you never capitalize the word "bible." This leads me to believe you do not believe its contents, otherwise you would refer to it as a proper noun and confer upon it its proper grammatical honor. Based on this, I declare you are a heretic. |
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