|
|
Post by jswarthout on Jan 8, 2012 0:35:09 GMT -5
I guess I'm an atheist, although currently I'm not so sure about where I stand at all. My question is, how can I know if god is truly trying to reach out to me? Major life changing events have occured in my life, and I'm not sure if this is coincidence, or what. I have never been more lost. What do you guys think?
|
|
|
|
Post by Solid on Jan 8, 2012 1:23:23 GMT -5
First of all, welcome to the forums! Could you explain what these life-changing events are?
|
|
|
|
Post by jswarthout on Jan 8, 2012 13:52:50 GMT -5
First of all, welcome to the forums! Could you explain what these life-changing events are? Hey thanks! In the past nine months, I have been homeless twice, I have been separated from my wife and havnt seen my son during that whole time frame, and my family has basically turned their back in my time of need. |
|
|
|
Post by Azrael on Jan 8, 2012 22:17:36 GMT -5
A couple things, I guess. 5 years ago I would have said something different, but this is what I have come to believe.
This isn't about God searching for you or calling out to you. This is about you searching for something. I think the prevailing temptation is to tell you that you have indeed been called out by God in this time of difficulty in your life and that your suffering serves this purpose. However, I'm not of that idea anymore.
There's an ancient parable in which a widow loses her baby to an illness. Bereaved and deep in grief, she straps the child's body to herself and climbs to the monastery in which a wise man who is said to have a mastery over despair and darkness lives. She presents the body of her child to him and asks him to heal the baby. The man replies that she must first bring him mustard seeds from the gardens or fields of a house that has not known the bitter sting of death. Immediately the woman sets off to find a house to harvest the seeds from. But as she traveled from house to house, she found there was not a single family that had not. When she returned to the man, she had heard the suffering of others and no longer needed her child back. She was ready to bury him in the soil of the world.
God's not a magic eraser which wipes the bad things out of your life. I know evangelicals say this in stadiums, but they don't mean it and it's lost its meaning. Being a follower of Jesus in no way means that you won't experience the grief that comes with life. What it means is that you will be planted firmly in the suffering of others and that you will be able to lay your pain to rest in the love of others that Jesus shared.
Jesus had a terrible life. He suffered more than most people in his short 33 years. His suffering was what "perfected" him. This is how he communed with humans. This is how we commune with God. To expect God to mitigate our suffering would be ironic.
I suppose the brunt of what I'm trying to say is that suffering is not a wake up call for religion. If you truly want in on this, try to live in a world of love towards the people around you. Listen, understand, sympathize. This will help you come to terms with your own suffering. When you can do this, you will find that you don't need a mitigation to your suffering and you can begin a relationship with God grounded on your desire to know him. And through your suffering, you will have grown to understand him and will have partaken in the very sort of suffering Christ experienced.
Billy Graham would probably have me marched out into the street and shot for effing up a perfectly good altar call, but this is genuinely the way I've grown to view suffering and conversion.
|
|
|
|
Post by Metzuda on Jan 9, 2012 23:18:48 GMT -5
Billy Graham would probably have me marched out into the street and shot for effing up a perfectly good altar call, but this is genuinely the way I've grown to view suffering and conversion. No, you're good. BG wasn't an a**hole, I'm pretty sure he understood his share of suffering. To jswarthout; Solid is right; just because you're suffering doesn't mean God is trying to get your attention. God doesn't need to put you through s**t to do that. However... that doesn't mean He doesn't want to reveal Himself to you; He is very real. I'd encourage you, if you're curious... to just ask... as in "God, if you're real, I'd love to know." He probably won't suddenly show up in a chariot of fire (although that would be pretty epic) but He can show up in one way or another. |
|
|
|
Post by jswarthout on Jan 11, 2012 16:20:22 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt the bible say that you have to be cleansed with the blood of christ for god to reveal itself? Technically I am not a "child of god", right? And you cant really use a job reference here, because he had a firm belief in god. Where I struggle, is that i want to believe in a god, there is not enough evidence to refute the possibility of it. Isnt faith itself a gift from god? I dont want to be a fake either, or a "fairweather" christian. I tried that once and I felt nothing, which is to be expected. In the end, I am not interested in religion, I am interested with the possibility of an actual relationship with the creator of the universe.
|
|
|
|
Post by Azrael on Jan 11, 2012 17:10:05 GMT -5
Something I've grown to learn is that a lot of the phrases like "blood of Christ" have more symbolic roots than literal. The blood of Christ is quite literally the suffering he undertook. It's another way of showing us that when we suffer, we are able to encounter God through the disruption of our lives.
As for Job, I don't think he was a literal or real person. The way the book was written sets it up as a story traded down from generations of rabbi. I always found its message about suffering to be insufficient, which, according to some new thinkers, is the point. There is no sufficient explanation of suffering that can let us walk away smiling and nodding our heads going "Oh, that's what this is. It's so simple."
As for faith being a gift, that's a question of predestination and another complicated can of worms. Personally, I believe that the individual is the one who accepts the terms of God's love. It's a relationship, and it can't exist without mutual consent.
|
|
|
|
Post by jswarthout on Jan 12, 2012 22:56:52 GMT -5
Something I've grown to learn is that a lot of the phrases like "blood of Christ" have more symbolic roots than literal. The blood of Christ is quite literally the suffering he undertook. It's another way of showing us that when we suffer, we are able to encounter God through the disruption of our lives. As for Job, I don't think he was a literal or real person. The way the book was written sets it up as a story traded down from generations of rabbi. I always found its message about suffering to be insufficient, which, according to some new thinkers, is the point. There is no sufficient explanation of suffering that can let us walk away smiling and nodding our heads going "Oh, that's what this is. It's so simple." As for faith being a gift, that's a question of predestination and another complicated can of worms. Personally, I believe that the individual is the one who accepts the terms of God's love. It's a relationship, and it can't exist without mutual consent. Ok, I can see your point about "the blood of christ" being symbolic, but my point was actually that it is said that in order to get to the father, you must go through the son". Wouldn't I also have to have 100% belief in god as well? I am starting to believe now that you mention it, that not only is the story of job fictional, but that most of the old testament is not to be taken literally. Can you please expound upon faith being a gift? |
|
|
|
Post by jswarthout on Jan 16, 2012 14:33:03 GMT -5
Wow this forum is pretty much dead, other then the few responses that I got, I was expecting more. Its funny how useless things like video games are talked about more on this board. Oh well, at least I tried.
|
|
|
|
Post by skully on Jan 19, 2012 20:11:43 GMT -5
just to make things clear jswarthout, i'm not quite sure if i fully understand what you're talking about, but i'd love to help you in the best way that i can. i have been on this thread a few times, but mostly just lurking around (lol) anyway.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt the bible say that you have to be cleansed with the blood of christ for god to reveal itself? Actually that wouldn't be necessarily true since Christianity is faith founded by sinners and for sinners. what you're implying (at least i think so) is that we have to be absolutely perfect in order to find God, which is not true at all. it doesn't matter who you are or what you've done for God to reveal Himself to you. however, in order to be fully saved from our own sins, we have to fully trust in God, understand why His Son, Jesus died on the cross for us, and we have to repent of our sins. that's the basics of salvation. or in other words, salvation is when you realize you can't make it on your own and that you can't control everything, but instead of cursing the world and anything/everything in it, you put your trust in God. Technically I am not a "child of god", right? that is true if you do not have the Holy Spirit (if you're not a Christian). to better clarify though, God is represented in 3 forms (AKA the divine trinity), but they all mean the same thing: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. it's kinda hard to explain and comprehend, but i think this website might help: christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t002.htmlp.s: sorry about going a bit off-topic but i'm trying to help you understand the Christian Faith as best as I can. Where I struggle, is that i want to believe in a god, there is not enough evidence to refute the possibility of it. I would have to somewhat argue with your "not enough evidence" case here since I am personally what is known as an evidental apologist. I know and use both scientific and historical facts to prove God's existence and there definitely is plenty of scientific/historical evidence, but for the sake of staying on topic, that's a whole other story which i may make another thread for that.  however though, the real evidence of believing in God comes from faith alone. it comes from choosing to believe in God even if/when there seems to be no reason to. i would be more than happy to tell you why I chose to be a Christian, but like i said before, that's a whole different story for another time. Isn't faith itself a gift from god? yes, that is correct. it comes when you ask Jesus into your heart and it grows as you continue to spiritually grow as a Christian I dont want to be a fake either, or a "fairweather" christian. I tried that once and I felt nothing, which is to be expected. In the end, I am not interested in religion, I am interested with the possibility of an actual relationship with the creator of the universe. i get what you mean here and even the Bible is against "fairweather" Christians (Revalations 3:16) p.s: first of all I would say Job was a real person since there's no evidence saying that he wasn't. secondly, the Old Testament should be taken seriously in the absolute fact that the entire Bible, both New and Old Testament should be taken seriously as it was inspired by God Himself (John 1:1-5) also, as Metzuda said to just pray "God if you are real, then I'd love to know." would be the best way to come to find faith and salvation in Christ because that's basically where salvation begins. I really hope this does help you out, and like i said before, i'm only trying my best  |
|
|
|
Post by Azrael on Mar 24, 2012 18:06:22 GMT -5
p.s: first of all I would say Job was a real person since there's no evidence saying that he wasn't. secondly, the Old Testament should be taken seriously in the absolute fact that the entire Bible, both New and Old Testament should be taken seriously as it was inspired by God Himself (John 1:1-5) Oh good Lord, not this again. The introduction goes on to talk about the poetic form of Job and how it's in a genre of dramatic narrative. In other words, basically a parable. Basically what we have is a Jewish scholar in the prophetic era talking about a guy from a far away land from Abraham's time. So not only are we dealing with our own cultural gap, but one inherent in the story from the shift in its own language and customs. Now if we're going to play the game that Job is real because he is mentioned and every person ever mentioned in the Bible is a real person because the Bible is infallible and somehow what that really means is that everything has to be taken at the surface level from a 21st century English-speaker Occidental perspective, we have to take it further. The good Samaritan, the lady who lost her two silver pieces, and the whole host of other people from Jesus' parables were real literal people rather than metaphorical representations for all of us. It's in the Bible. Seriously. It wouldn't be in there if they weren't real people. Cuz', you know. Parables weren't a big part of Hebrew literary tradition. I just get peeved when somebody 2,500 years later from a completely different culture and with a 100% different language starts suggesting that we need to think of the Bible as our own unique Western/Anglo-American/21st Century different of absolute facts. A little bit of mysticism is healthy sometimes. |
|
however though, the real evidence of believing in God comes from faith alone. it comes from choosing to believe in God even if/when there seems to be no reason to. i would be more than happy to tell you why I chose to be a Christian, but like i said before, that's a whole different story for another time.