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Post by Maarten on Dec 5, 2009 17:16:32 GMT -5
So, I do not believe that miracles can violate the laws of nature. I see that as a ridiculous statement. The laws of nature are inviolable. You think the resurrection is a natural thing? What about Jesus walking on the water? Also, I'm quite confident that if God managed to create these laws of nature, he'll find a way to bypass them if he needs to.
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 5, 2009 18:49:53 GMT -5
So your saying that God creates laws but sometimes breaks them later? To me that sounds a little silly.
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Post by lastfirstborn on Dec 5, 2009 20:16:37 GMT -5
I don't think anybody will be suprised that I voted miracles. Also, as for all the s**t in my life which I do not attribute to God, mankind is a fallen species that has disobeyed it's creator and left him, thus mankind has a s**tty life. Fortunately our loving creator has given us redemption and eternal life, by his grace, through the blood of Jesus; because he doesn't want us to have a s**tty life, but he wants us to live in a relationship with him. However, if you don't accept his redemption, you're bound to keep the s**tty life you're in. Christians still stay in this s**tty world, because God wants to use us to help restore as much of this fallen mankind as possible. Because we still stay in this s**tty world, we're bound to be involved in the s**t that happens in this world. I'm not disagreeing with you. Basically, my point was that I would credit "cause and effect" rather than "miracles" or "coincidences" (which I probably should've just said in the first place, but life goes on).
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Post by feverstone on Dec 5, 2009 21:47:56 GMT -5
So your saying that God creates laws but sometimes breaks them later? To me that sounds a little silly. Yeah... And biblical. God is above man's laws. He kinda proved it when he died, came back to life, walked on water, healed blindness with mud, rose into heaven, fed the five thousand with five pieces of bread and two fish, etc... Which, of course, is obvious. So maybe I'm missing your point.
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Post by Maarten on Dec 6, 2009 5:52:35 GMT -5
So your saying that God creates laws but sometimes breaks them later? To me that sounds a little silly. Wasn't it God who allowed Joshua (or was it Moses, I'm doubting which one it was) to stop the sun for a few hours so that some battle Israël was having had enough time to finish properly? I'm not a theologan, nor do I claim to understand God completely, I can perfectly understand where you're coming from, and frankly, if you look at it in the rigt way, it does indfeed seem a little silly. All I'm saying is that God most defintely seems to violate nature's laws every now and then in the bible if he needs to, and I don't see a reason why he would've stopped doing that now...... My defition of a miracle is when God interferes with our world. Sometimes this may be a flashy sort of thing like a healing, sometimes it may just be the simple fullfilment of your prayer, in a way that it might as well have been coïncidence. I do like what you're saying about miracles being things to glorify God, and I do agree that this is a integral part of what a miracle is. Also, the Greek word that is usually used for miracle means something as a 'good work'. So that might imply it doesn't have to be supernatural; however in the bible we clearly see God directly interfering with his creation, in a way that violates some natural laws if he needs to.
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Post by Brent on Dec 6, 2009 6:05:15 GMT -5
God needs to make up his damn mind already, he gives us free-will apparently then turns around and interferes with it.
The thing that bothers me is when people attribute everything bad and good by saying "it's what God wanted". You know how easy it is to use God as an excuse. Pretty damn easy. No matter what happens you can say God has a plan for you. No matter if you get shot in the dick by your brother playing paintball or win the lottery, you can say everything happens because it is God's plan.
Scenario:
Mom - Hey Billy, study your for your midterm, it's what God would want you to do.
Billy - God wants you to GET BACK IN THE f**kING KITCHEN WHERE YOU BELONG b**ch
Dad - I just got in a car accident and am paralyzed, I guess it's what God wanted.
Billy - f**k YOU DAD SERVES YOU RIGHT FOR BEING SUCH A JACKASS. MY PRAYERS WORKED.
Mom - Billy, you prayed your dad would get hurt?
Billy - Hell yes you skank, I also prayed you would SHUT THE f**k UP AND GET ME SOME MORE HOT POCKETS
Mom - I don't think they're on sale, I'll check online to see if they are
hotpockets.com FREE HOT POCKETS OH MY GOD FREE HOT POCKETS AT THE GROCERY STORE FOR THE NEXT 5 MINUTES OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD
Billy - God really is awesome
Dad - Can someone help me? I need to s**t but am f**kING PARALYZED
BILLY - SUCK MY DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK DAD YOU female anatomy
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Post by Maarten on Dec 6, 2009 6:19:54 GMT -5
The thing that bothers me is when people attribute everything bad and good by saying "it's what God wanted". You know how easy it is to use God as an excuse. Pretty damn easy. For a part I agree with you, James for instance tells us that when we are tempted, we cannot say God is tempting (testing us or giving us some sort of trial as it were) for "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" (1:13). Rather we are told "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed."(verse 14) Though God certainly works in mysterious ways I do not understand, Christians like to go back to medievel times blaiming God's mysterious will/Satan for everything bad that happens, rather then accepting ones own responsibility, and sinfull nature.
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Post by Muffy on Dec 6, 2009 6:46:38 GMT -5
Jesus walked through a closed door.
If you knew anything about physics, you would know that it's possible if you have the power to control the laws of nature.
Why is it bad for God to break his own rules? Assuming he made them up in the first place, he can alter them any way he likes.
I agree with Brent on the people who attribute everything to God.
"I have the desire to rape you, it must be what God wants me to do"
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Post by Maarten on Dec 6, 2009 7:04:52 GMT -5
I agree with Brent on the people who attribute everything to God. Well, I said I partly agreed with Brent. The same passage in James also tells us in verse 17 that "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
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Post by Muffy on Dec 6, 2009 7:10:22 GMT -5
Eh, I wasn't really picking on anything you said I was just explaining my idea of the thread subject in general
I'm not voting.
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 6, 2009 13:04:07 GMT -5
"Miracles do not, in fact, break the laws of nature." - C.S. Lewis "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." - Albert Einstein Edit- I retract this statement: So your saying that God creates laws but sometimes breaks them later? To me that sounds a little silly.
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Post by Maarten on Dec 6, 2009 13:38:00 GMT -5
Jeremy, can you please tell me why you think the examples given in this thread, do not violate the laws of nature?
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 6, 2009 20:23:34 GMT -5
Because people observed them occur in nature.
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Post by Maarten on Dec 7, 2009 11:59:26 GMT -5
Could you please stop being vague? Maybe it's just me, but I don't really properly understand what you're trying to say; as far as I can tell, you mostly say sensible things, so I'm guessing this isn't going to be weird, I just don't really understand what you're trying to say.
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 7, 2009 13:19:39 GMT -5
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