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Post by Josh on Dec 14, 2009 22:45:31 GMT -5
HE CAME THEREFORE HE WAS.
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Post by lastfirstborn on Dec 14, 2009 22:46:34 GMT -5
That's that she said.
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Post by dlectronic on Dec 14, 2009 22:48:23 GMT -5
^^^Lol at more virtually infinite questions.
It is crucial you accept the characteristics of that of which you speak. You are referring to God of the Bible, are you not? If so, you must understand that this being you speak of created the law of cause and effect...He is, by description eternal and needs no creator.
You can choose for yourself whether this being is extant or not, but if you refer to Him, understand His traits.
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Post by lastfirstborn on Dec 14, 2009 22:53:56 GMT -5
^^^Lol at more virtually infinite questions. It is crucial you accept the characteristics of that of which you speak. You are referring to God of the Bible, are you not? If so, you must understand that this being you speak of created the law of cause and effect...He is, by description eternal and needs no creator. You can choose for yourself whether this being is extant or not, but if you refer to Him, understand His traits. When I say "God", I'm referring to any non-physical being that is supposedly responsible for our existence. It could be a god with human-like reasoning like those that religions depict, a creator being that is not human-like (whose reasoning is different than ours, thus unpredictable and probably unfathomable), a Pizza Dick Monster, etc. I'm not referring to the Judeo-Christian God exclusively, here. My question is how a God who transcends our logic is more logical than a non-created existence that seems illogical on paper.
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Post by dlectronic on Dec 14, 2009 23:04:58 GMT -5
Who said God violates our logic? I believe Brent did, initially. I said God was the LOGICAL explanation for our existence
Logic tells me that "nothingness cannot act." Not admitting this is choosing irrationality. To spit on the mind. To refuse to accept innate truth, if you will. Again I refer to Atlas Shrugged: to choose to not think is essentially to worship death. ha..
Thus, logically, something beyond our universe must be. Brent also said this was so. I admit, this "outside-the-universe-thing" COULD be a number of things I guess. But the characteristics of God deem Him to be eternal. Not ever in need of a creator.
"God who transcends our logic" are your words, not my own. I believe God is logical.
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Post by Brent on Dec 15, 2009 17:51:43 GMT -5
Okay, you choose that a God created us, but saying specifically that this God is the Christian God, that is absolutely digging into another territory which has already been beaten to death. In a nutshell, the Bible is full of non-sense and contradictions. Any philosopher knows this. Your argument seems to hover across argument from ignorance, that since there is a God and there's a Bible that must mean it's a Christian God. I might be wrong but that seems to be your argument sorta kinda.
Yet another theist failing to understand what agnosticism actually is. Agnosticism is believing us as humans cannot communicate with supernatural beings. Those supernatural beings are not worthy of our worship because we cannot prove they exist via logical means. In a nutshell, God cannot be proven or disproven, science can explain the natural universe, therefore God (if he exists) must be supernatural.
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Post by Jacob on Dec 15, 2009 18:00:48 GMT -5
nothingness doesn't spawn existence Then where did God's existence come from? In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth....It didn't come from anything it was In the beginning.Meaning the very 1st thing ever. EVER
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Post by dlectronic on Dec 15, 2009 19:39:22 GMT -5
So Brent, I am to simply believe you when you say "Anybody knows the Bible is full of contradictions...and stuff" ? Well I know many "good" philosophers and theologians who agree that is NOT as you describe it....But to briefly touch base on the subject, why don't we look into the field of archeology.
I urge you. Look into it. Ill let you google it.
And regarding agnosticism, you can say "the theist is wrong" all you want, but you can't get the best of both worlds as far as eternity is concerned. If my beliefs are correct, you might as well have been a cross burning anti theist. Thats harshly put, of course, I feel the message of Christ is one of love...
But as far as your title goes, its kinda irrelevant. You either simply stop living when death occurs, OR there is a spirit that is judged by God. Atheism and agnosticism both believe the 1st of the 2 occur.
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Post by Brent on Dec 15, 2009 19:49:48 GMT -5
We've had this debate many times, the Bible is so open to interpretation it's f**king ridiculous. All I know is the problem of evil remains a solid philosophical argument against a Christian God.
I've mentioned it a million times.
Yeah I guess. If there really is a soul then God knows about my soul. He knows I would like to believe in a God but I can't because human logic is all I can go by, it is my foundation. Human logic is pretty simple, something which cannot be seen or heard cannot be explained. God cannot be explained, prayer cannot be verified, souls can't be verified, it's FAITH VS LOGIC
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 16, 2009 1:29:42 GMT -5
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Post by dlectronic on Dec 16, 2009 3:19:00 GMT -5
Whatever you say man. I have said quite a few times that I believe faith is logical. Cause and effect is. The universe began. therefore it needs a cause. Simple logic. Misconstrue it if you will.
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Post by Brent on Dec 16, 2009 4:47:09 GMT -5
I'll copy and paste this because I cannot say it any better: "In most cause-and-effect relationships, you deal in probabilities rather than certainties, particularly when you get out of the realm of scientific subjects." www.eng.fju.edu.tw/con&com_databank/writing/cause.htm The probability of a God can be high, yes, the probability it's the Christian God is significantly lower because of the problem of evil. I am not going into that argument for the 87 millionth time. Its never going to get into the minds of the theists on these boards. You have been indoctrinated too much to change any sort of opinion, you have formed a emotional bond with this God of yours. Just saying, I was a Christian and prayed to God for forgiveness many times from about 13-17 years old. I know of the social norm of being a Christian. I still to this day do not tell my parents I don't believe in God because my Dad was indoctrinated at an early age, he is grounded in his belief and always has had a passion for ridiculing non-theists. If I told him he would flip out, my mom would probably think I'm immoral too. Bottom line, I know even if some of you guys would start questioning the Christian God's existence you'd be outcast from your families, and family is there your whole life. /Cool story bro
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Post by Muffy on Dec 16, 2009 5:45:17 GMT -5
After careful review of the past few pages, past few threads on the topic, and past forums where this has been discussed, I must give my view.
f**k THIS THREAD
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Post by dlectronic on Dec 16, 2009 5:59:41 GMT -5
Sounds like your dislike for Jesus outweighs your like for knowledge. I have actually read you say "the Bible is wrong" 2 times. Not 80 billion.
Each time you have done nothing but make the claim. If you are writing an essay, that will get you a D...maybe a C- if the professor is kind. I don't believe you, and what is rather shameful is, you can't tell me I shouldn't disagree. You have yet to give me reason to agree in the first place.
"You shouldn't think the Bible is right because the Bible is incorrect!"... or "Sin makes the Bible wrong because it does!"
have fun.
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Post by Brent on Dec 16, 2009 6:05:31 GMT -5
The Bible had a man which lived in a fish for days, The Bible has a man that lived to 900 years old, The Bible said Noah had two of every animal in a f**king boat.
None of these are logical. If you want to tell me they are go ahead. If you would like to present evidence for these tales go ahead. YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF
And my argument was the Problem of Evil. I'm not explaining it again, too much effort
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