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Post by Patrick on Oct 13, 2010 1:50:27 GMT -5
Reading this thread has not helped me at all in recovering my faith My friend's have definitely had better arguments, I have tuned them out for so long, but now I just realize that they're are right. They said whats the point of worshipping a God that we can't fully understand? And it makes sense, they said we only have human logic to make choices. Every time we chill and talk about this stuff they are convincing and not hostile with me, I thought Athiests were jerks but my friends have been really friendly about talking with me. It's making me re-think a lot of misconceptions I've had, being naive I guess. I do have a lot to learn. First off, your faith is your prerogative; not ours or your atheist friends'. You decide what your faith or religious practice will be; not other people. If you want to keep your faith; no one's stopping you. If you want to ditch your faith; no one's stopping you. It's 100% your responsibility. That said, there are also plenty of Christians and other Theists who are willing to have a friendly conversation with you. If the ones you talk to are jerks, ditch them and find some others. By the way, what's wrong with my arguments? If you don't think our points are sound, let's start a debate! I think my arguments make more sense than yours. Convince me otherwise!
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Post by unicycletim on Oct 13, 2010 4:05:55 GMT -5
I'm reading a book at the moment, Blue Like Jazz by Donald Millar. It's a really good book, he has a style of story telling which is absolutely fascinating, while being brilliant at getting a higher message out.
I just read this and thought it would fit with this thread:
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Post by pray7for7give7ness on Oct 13, 2010 18:26:43 GMT -5
Reading this thread has not helped me at all in recovering my faith My friend's have definitely had better arguments, I have tuned them out for so long, but now I just realize that they're are right. They said whats the point of worshipping a God that we can't fully understand? And it makes sense, they said we only have human logic to make choices. Every time we chill and talk about this stuff they are convincing and not hostile with me, I thought Athiests were jerks but my friends have been really friendly about talking with me. It's making me re-think a lot of misconceptions I've had, being naive I guess. I do have a lot to learn. First off, your faith is your prerogative; not ours or your atheist friends'. You decide what your faith or religious practice will be; not other people. If you want to keep your faith; no one's stopping you. If you want to ditch your faith; no one's stopping you. It's 100% your responsibility. That said, there are also plenty of Christians and other Theists who are willing to have a friendly conversation with you. If the ones you talk to are jerks, ditch them and find some others. By the way, what's wrong with my arguments? If you don't think our points are sound, let's start a debate! I think my arguments make more sense than yours. Convince me otherwise! I'm trying to go to people who are more knowledgable about this subject, and helping to understand both sides better and make a decision based upon arguments and understanding. My friends say that no amount of Christians arguments can lead to Christianity being any more valid than any other religion because faith is blind. Believing in a God is like reading a book of non-fiction mixed with fiction. I have had faith because the Bible has so much truth to it historicaly, but at the same time there is never going to be proof God exists unless he comes down from Heaven. I think your arguments are weak because even I can see that you try to justify being Christian because the Bible teaches a lot of morals and that you pull some random number 80% that somehow leads you to have your faith. My original question seems to have you guys stumped because you just ask why would God do that? Then say God is not completely understandable. Isn't that a contradiction?
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Post by Patrick on Oct 13, 2010 23:35:44 GMT -5
I'm trying to go to people who are more knowledgable about this subject, and helping to understand both sides better and make a decision based upon arguments and understanding. My friends say that no amount of Christians arguments can lead to Christianity being any more valid than any other religion because faith is blind. Believing in a God is like reading a book of non-fiction mixed with fiction. I have had faith because the Bible has so much truth to it historicaly, but at the same time there is never going to be proof God exists unless he comes down from Heaven. I think your arguments are weak because even I can see that you try to justify being Christian because the Bible teaches a lot of morals and that you pull some random number 80% that somehow leads you to have your faith. My original question seems to have you guys stumped because you just ask why would God do that? Then say God is not completely understandable. Isn't that a contradiction? You're being unrealistic with your understanding of what faith is in the first place. Faith, by definition has uncertainty attached to it (Do you know what the term "take a leap of faith" means?) It means no one knows for certain. Take for example, a young kid on a diving board with mom or dad in the water beneath with open arms ready to catch him. Is the kid certain he will be caught? No, but based on what he believes about his parents, he either concludes that, yes he will be caught, and proceeds to jump, or no, he won't be caught, and backs out of the situation. Likewise, the Bible paints a picture of what God is like. There are many ways you can interpret it, and based on your interpretation, you decide that you will or you won't take the leap of faith associated with believing in God. No one knows. Perhaps God is the a**hole you propose He is, but based on the leap of faith that I've taken, I believe He is not. Your beliefs are your decision. All I could do is advise you to choose wisely. Clear?
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Post by unicycletim on Oct 14, 2010 18:02:02 GMT -5
I'm trying to go to people who are more knowledgable about this subject, and helping to understand both sides better and make a decision based upon arguments and understanding. My friends say that no amount of Christians arguments can lead to Christianity being any more valid than any other religion because faith is blind. Believing in a God is like reading a book of non-fiction mixed with fiction. I have had faith because the Bible has so much truth to it historicaly, but at the same time there is never going to be proof God exists unless he comes down from Heaven. I think your arguments are weak because even I can see that you try to justify being Christian because the Bible teaches a lot of morals and that you pull some random number 80% that somehow leads you to have your faith. My original question seems to have you guys stumped because you just ask why would God do that? Then say God is not completely understandable. Isn't that a contradiction? You're being unrealistic with your understanding of what faith is in the first place. Faith, by definition has uncertainty attached to it (Do you know what the term "take a leap of faith" means?) It means no one knows for certain. Take for example, a young kid on a diving board with mom or dad in the water beneath with open arms ready to catch him. Is the kid certain he will be caught? No, but based on what he believes about his parents, he either concludes that, yes he will be caught, and proceeds to jump, or no, he won't be caught, and backs out of the situation. Likewise, the Bible paints a picture of what God is like. There are many ways you can interpret it, and based on your interpretation, you decide that you will or you won't take the leap of faith associated with believing in God. No one knows. Perhaps God is the a**hole you propose He is, but based on the leap of faith that I've taken, I believe He is not. Your beliefs are your decision. All I could do is advise you to choose wisely. Clear? I think that's what I was trying to get across with my quote. I believe that if you ask God to reveal himself to you, and truly believe that he will, then he will. Just give it try!
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Post by tohellwithhades on Oct 15, 2010 12:06:54 GMT -5
pray7for7give7ness,
All in all, it comes down to the heart. Your Christian friends can tell you about Christ and do their utmost best to explain the faith and your other friends can provide their perspectives as well. In my opinion, no one truly becomes Christian based on a sound, logical argument; they choose Christ because God works in their heart. It's an understanding without understanding. Learning who God is and developing a relationship with Him takes more than a lifetime.
P.S. the idea that we can't highly regard--in God's case; worship and value--someone we don't completely understand is silly. We don't completely understand anyone we have a relationship with, be it mother, father, sister, brother, or significant other, but yet we can have high regard and honor towards them (and so we can with God).
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Post by pray7for7give7ness on Oct 16, 2010 3:28:46 GMT -5
I'm just now starting to think about things differently, I don't know what is happening to me but I both like it and dislike it.
Knowing things like the "soul" and "faith" and the "heart" are just buzz terms for people who don't use logic but are indoctrinated into using those phrases to reinforce and justify their own morality.
I don't need to have blind faith to be happy and have morals, I am so ready to enter a new stage of my life and live it free of illusions.
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Post by Patrick on Oct 16, 2010 19:26:48 GMT -5
I'm just now starting to think about things differently, I don't know what is happening to me but I both like it and dislike it. Knowing things like the "soul" and "faith" and the "heart" are just buzz terms for people who don't use logic but are indoctrinated into using those phrases to reinforce and justify their own morality. I don't need to have blind faith to be happy and have morals, I am so ready to enter a new stage of my life and live it free of illusions. Yeah, I agree with what MetalMan5000 said. You have disregarded every rational argument I've given for belief, and you also have disregarded the spiritual arguments others have given. It sounds to me like you've already made up your mind.
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Post by Scott on Oct 16, 2010 22:29:32 GMT -5
There may be rational, logical arguments for God's existence, but to truly experience and know He is there, one must search with one's soul.
Find solitude and shed your worries, emotions, assumptions, and preconceptions about everything. Empty yourself. It may take a few minutes, a few hours, or even days or weeks to get where you need to be. But continually ask God to show Himself to you. When you've brought your immortal soul to the fore and subdued your mind and flesh, then God will be revealed.
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Post by Patrick on Oct 17, 2010 1:01:01 GMT -5
Scott, it doesn't sound like He's interested.
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Post by scribe on Oct 17, 2010 7:58:49 GMT -5
i think this is brent
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Post by Patrick on Oct 17, 2010 18:31:30 GMT -5
Haha, yep! Just not as hostile though.
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Post by Jeremy on Oct 17, 2010 19:15:02 GMT -5
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Post by dlectronic on Oct 25, 2010 15:09:49 GMT -5
xD he fooled me if so.
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Post by dlectronic on Oct 31, 2010 0:51:00 GMT -5
Go brent for fooling us. You couldn't resist coming back, eh?
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