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Post by Maarten on Nov 28, 2010 14:44:15 GMT -5
But you didn't save Iraq or Afghanistan at all, they're still horrible countries to live in.
As I've stated before, the West would do much more good in aiding the countless countries that live in poverty than violently destroy the few corrupt dictatorships on this world. Apparently, or so Martin Luther King Jr. says, during the Vietnam war, "it is estimated that we spend $500,000 to kill each enemy soldier, while we spend only fifty-three dollars for each person classified as poor." In whatever perspective you want to put it, no matter how many countless arguments you can find to justify these wars, spending loads of money to kill and a little to help the weak and poor, seems wrong. Now you may say; 'but we helped Afghanistan and Iraq, that money wasn't wasted, it was of help to the poor any needy!' You should know Iraq and Afghanistan are still poor countries and horrible to live in. Not that Saddam Hussein was such a great guy, but Christians are persecuted more now after being 'freed' by America, than they were under the reign of Saddam Hussein.
Besides that, it is mostly the arrogance with which the West proclaims itself to be the world's policeman that bothers me.
Martin Luther King Jr. to the rescue (once again):
"And don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, "You're too arrogant! And if you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even kenow my name. Be still and know that I'm God.""
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Post by Jeremy on Nov 28, 2010 15:17:12 GMT -5
Romans 12:14-21 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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Post by Patrick on Nov 28, 2010 17:57:21 GMT -5
But you didn't save Iraq or Afghanistan at all, they're still horrible countries to live in. No doubt there are still problems in Iraq, but we did save them from Saddam Hussein, and it is a vastly better place to live as a result. It's still dangerous because there are Islamic radicals running around, but there's no longer a leader who tortures and murders his own people wholesale. As I've stated before, the West would do much more good in aiding the countless countries that live in poverty than violently destroy the few corrupt dictatorships on this world. We've tried Government aid in Africa, but it doesn't work because the aid we give to the leaders of these nations never goes to the people who need it. Can you guess the reason? Because these Governments use the West's aid to prop up their power instead of feed the poor. It's a nice idea, but it doesn't work in reality. Apparently, or so Martin Luther King Jr. says, during the Vietnam war, "it is estimated that we spend $500,000 to kill each enemy soldier, while we spend only fifty-three dollars for each person classified as poor." In whatever perspective you want to put it, no matter how many countless arguments you can find to justify these wars, spending loads of money to kill and a little to help the weak and poor, seems wrong. Martin Luther King Jr., although an incredible man, was a pacifist. And as such, he had an anti-war agenda. I'm sure he believed it was his place to undermine our war efforts. The problem, as I outlined above, is that government aid never works as it's intended. You give money to the governments of poor nations, and they take the money to use for their benefit and the further oppression of already poor people. Now you may say; 'but we helped Afghanistan and Iraq, that money wasn't wasted, it was of help to the poor any needy!' You should know Iraq and Afghanistan are still poor countries and horrible to live in. Not that Saddam Hussein was such a great guy, but Christians are persecuted more now after being 'freed' by America, than they were under the reign of Saddam Hussein. I don't care whether victims are non-Christian or Christian. It's wrong all the same. Hussein slaughtered vast numbers of his people, and nothing like what he did is happening in Iraq now. It's still terrible, but it's a lot better. Besides that, it is mostly the arrogance with which the West proclaims itself to be the world's policeman that bothers me. The real arrogance is that of governments who believe they have the right to be cruel to their own people, and threaten and antagonize the World around them. Why shouldn't the West want to stop them? Martin Luther King Jr. to the rescue (once again): "And don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, "You're too arrogant! And if you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even kenow my name. Be still and know that I'm God."" Again, he was a great man, and an incredible help to America, but he was a Pacifist. Although I agree with most of what he proclaimed, I disagree with his Pacifism.
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 1, 2010 19:36:16 GMT -5
I'm finished/
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Post by Maarten on Dec 2, 2010 11:13:47 GMT -5
We've tried Government aid in Africa, but it doesn't work because the aid we give to the leaders of these nations never goes to the people who need it. Can you guess the reason? Because these Governments use the West's aid to prop up their power instead of feed the poor. It's a nice idea, but it doesn't work in reality. Though I do believe we should I did not even go so far as to say we ought to directly support these countries, I just suggested to stop exploiting them. Martin Luther King Jr., although an incredible man, was a pacifist. And? Pacifism is what we are discussing here, so dismissing his ideas as pacifism isn't good enough. I don't care whether victims are non-Christian or Christian. It's wrong all the same. Hussein slaughtered vast numbers of his people, and nothing like what he did is happening in Iraq now. It's still terrible, but it's a lot better. I don't care who the victims are either, it was just an example to show that in some aspects it has become even worse than it was before the war. I do not think that the little bit of improvement was worth the horrible violence the USA has brought about in that country. The real arrogance is that of governments who believe they have the right to be cruel to their own people, and threaten and antagonize the World around them. Why shouldn't the West want to stop them? Romans 12:19 "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord." The West is not the worlds judge and it never will be. Nobody has appointed it to be so. I will not accept the West to be the self-proclaimed judge of the world and I know God certainly won't. Acting as the world's law-enforcer it directly opposes the authority of God and as you can read in the old testament, God doesn't let nations get away with such arrogance. In my eyes the West is as morally corrupt as the governments of those poor countries. It's just better at deceiving itself, convicing itself of its righteoussness and right to act supreme.
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Post by Patrick on Dec 4, 2010 1:05:51 GMT -5
Like I said; I have a different political philosophy than Martin Luther King Jr. We both believe that the poor need to be taken care of: his solution is more Government programs. I, on the other hand, believe it's not the Government's responsibility to take care of the poor, but the responsibility of individual people and private enterprise. I believe that the Government's responsibility is to do it's best to keep justice domestically and abroad while facilitating as much freedom as possible. Policing (not in a tyrannical way, but in order to maintain basic decency) is the responsibility of decent governments, but charity is not their responsibility. That responsibility (especially as Christians) falls solely on you and I.
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