|
Post by Paul on Jun 10, 2011 15:04:35 GMT -5
.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Jun 16, 2011 11:04:16 GMT -5
Alright, I'll be a little more straightforward...your post was rather incoherent and didn't really present an argument well. Who then, has chosen salvation? What you are assuming here is that salvation is an instant process. The talents, for one. But, logically, to get to predestination, you have to assume "Irresistible Grace". You cannot be saved without being enabled, but that doesn't mean you can't be enabled without being saved. That is not provided in the parable, nor is it any significant point of the parable. That's something you'd really have to look at the Greek texts for. I don't have access to them, so I can't say much else. What does that even mean?
|
|
|
Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2011 11:50:40 GMT -5
.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Jul 13, 2011 17:12:29 GMT -5
"Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so—and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call ‘tomorrow’ is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call ‘today’. All the days are ‘Now’ for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not ‘foresee’ you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow’s actions in just the same way— because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already ‘Now’ for Him." - C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
Post by Maarten on Jul 14, 2011 15:18:59 GMT -5
I agree with the way Lewis describes the way that God views a universe that is subject to time as a timeless being. However I believe God actively intervenes in that temporal universe, since, as Lewis' put it, our tomorrow is today to God, whatever actions God has yet to do, from our perspective, are known to God and in a way God has already acted, and all the free will of mankind isn't going to change whatever God has done, or, from a time perspective, will do. Since God is an eternal God, not subject to time, so are His decisions and actions, and thus I think it is correct to say, from a time perspective, that God has predestined every little detail of the universe, that has ever happened, that is happening right now, or that shall happen for all eternity. By predestined I mean made it happen or let it happen. However, when I say 'God lets it happen', I mean He lets it happen because it is conform to His will and eternal plan, but is not the author of it.
Proverbs 16:9 "In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps."
All that aside, when it comes to free will and salvation, I believe the bible makes it clear salvation is not dependent on the will of man. First because the will of man is fallen and will not lead anybody to God: "God looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Psalm 14, Psalm 53, Romans 3)
But Paul even flat out denies that the will of man plays a role in salvation: "For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. " (Romans 9:17-18)
One might wonder, why does God blaim us, if He has preordained every little detail of the universe? How can Pharaoh be held accountable for his sins, when it was God who hardened Pharaohs heart, when God raised him up only to be destroyed for the glory of God? Paul continues: "One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?" (Romans 9:19-21)
(After reading through this post, I realised I'm affirming Azreal's stereotype that calvinists always cite Romans ;D)
|
|