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Post by conner on May 11, 2011 14:47:45 GMT -5
So basically it's a big excuse to say everything you want to do is justifiable and good, and you're some sort of freedom fighter because you want to do what everyone else says is evil SO COOL
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Post by conner on May 11, 2011 14:52:38 GMT -5
I can't believe that people believe that garbage
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N/A
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Post by N/A on May 12, 2011 4:37:13 GMT -5
Pfft, yeah, I mean you'd have to be an idiot to just inherently believe in the writings of someone you've never met...
Oh wait.
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Post by Paul on May 12, 2011 11:51:44 GMT -5
Except the majority of the bible was written by eye witnesses. And when the NT was written these men were still alive and could still verify their stories, and there were hundreds of people talked about in the NT who all had the same eye witness testimonies. And all these people could be found and verify what they saw. And eyewitness accounts were the primary way anything from those time periods is known, and it's how people in those times verified their facts in court. And these people testified about specific events in specific ways. And the sheer number of writers and people who saw these things and the number of transcripts made from these events over time completely destroys any comparison between taking what the bible says as fact based on written word and taking to be true what some random person on the internet in a religion that probably hasn't existed very long and probably doesn't have a lot of people to verify its truth claims and sounds an awful lot like some things the bible tells you to avoid that people will say in order to make themselves feel good
but other than all that, nice bout
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Post by N/A on May 13, 2011 3:32:01 GMT -5
Except the majority of the bible was written by eye witnesses. And when the NT was written these men were still alive and could still verify their stories, and there were hundreds of people talked about in the NT who all had the same eye witness testimonies. And all these people could be found and verify what they saw. And eyewitness accounts were the primary way anything from those time periods is known, and it's how people in those times verified their facts in court. And these people testified about specific events in specific ways. And the sheer number of writers and people who saw these things and the number of transcripts made from these events over time completely destroys any comparison between taking what the bible says as fact based on written word and taking to be true what some random person on the internet in a religion that probably hasn't existed very long and probably doesn't have a lot of people to verify its truth claims and sounds an awful lot like some things the bible tells you to avoid that people will say in order to make themselves feel good but other than all that, nice bout Except that all those people are dead. And since there's no actual difference between a random dude with a pen and a random dude with a keyboard then no, there is no difference between the two.
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Post by Paul on May 13, 2011 11:41:47 GMT -5
the difference was the number of writers and they way they talked about specific events they saw. And at the time they could be verified. Kinda like how history works. A bunch of people saw it, and wrote about it separately. Even people who didn't believe in Jesus didn't deny His miracles, they just hated Him for it.
As opposed to a random guy stating the core beliefs of his religion because I'm assuming there is no definitive source (Christians have the bible written by numerous men saying the same things separately) and or no witnesses to the events he's talking about.
I'm not even saying that Christianity is true for these reasons, I'm saying there is no correlation to me believing the bible and someone believing this stuff
plus if you're saying believing the bible is stupid because it's taught primarily word of mouth, all the reasons I just gave would make believing this religion even stupider (less mouths, less fact based [Christianity is full of specific events that allegedly took place, talked about by numerous people (for the fifth time)]), which makes your argument even worse, though you're the "reasonable" and "logical" one, we're stupid gullible Christians
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Post by N/A on May 13, 2011 14:25:03 GMT -5
Hey man, I'm just saying.
Word of mouth from thousands of years ago proves nothing.
that's reasonable and logical.
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Post by Paul on May 13, 2011 14:29:41 GMT -5
well yeah
everyone agrees with that
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Post by Azrael on May 17, 2011 20:21:49 GMT -5
It's very interesting to me how he is portrayed in Job. It seems to be quite a stark contrast from what we see of him in Revelation. It's interesting how God used Satan as a tool to ultimately bless Job. The idea that he has to ask permission of the Lord before he does anything to a Christian is a very comforting idea. 1. Job didn't actually exist 2. Blake's interpretation was that Job worshiped an entirely different God than Elohim, which I tend to believe. Job was obsessed with justice and law. His son had his own house, which is primarily suggested to be a party house (as houses were usually added on to the family mansion). Job's own surrender to justice was what was ultimately responsible for his childrens' death. 3. The lesson of Job was to ask for help, not for forgiveness. Job didn't do anything really wrong and yet he kept asking for forgiveness. It's a lesson from God. Don't look at disasters as judgment from him. Just recognize that you need help. As for Satan, the ideas from OT to NT are very different. His motivations are mysterious. The real place where we get to explore him is in the temptations in the wilderness, contrasted against Christ.
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Post by Maarten on May 18, 2011 11:41:16 GMT -5
Let start off by saying I haven't ever studied Job in depth, so my opinion on things might not be very refined. 1. Job didn't actually exist Uhmmmm What do you base this on? 3. The lesson of Job was to ask for help, not for forgiveness. Job didn't do anything really wrong and yet he kept asking for forgiveness. It's a lesson from God. Don't look at disasters as judgment from him. Just recognize that you need help. Didn't his friends keep on telling him that he must've done something wrong, because God is punishing him, but rather Job claims to not have done anything wrong? As for Satan, the ideas from OT to NT are very different. His motivations are mysterious. The real place where we get to explore him is in the temptations in the wilderness, contrasted against Christ. Maybe the language in which satan is described is different in the old and the new testament, but I think making too big a difference between the old and the new testament should generally be avoided. Off course there is a difference between the testaments, different covenants obviously, but the character of God, His relationship to mankind and many other things, like satan, were the same in the old testament, the new testament, and today.
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Post by Radiant Magnificence Alastair on May 18, 2011 21:33:58 GMT -5
Some people question the authorship of Job, some think it was just a parable.
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Post by Azrael on May 20, 2011 12:37:49 GMT -5
Let start off by saying I haven't ever studied Job in depth, so my opinion on things might not be very refined. 1. Job didn't actually exist Uhmmmm What do you base this on? Ummmm having a brain. Job is written in the same language the opening of Genesis is. It's a parable. And besides, anybody who offers you consolation of your kids dying by saying "Oh look! New kids!" is a horrible person. It's a story meant to teach the righteous Jewish prisoners in Babylon that they will eventually regain all of what they lost. Didn't his friends keep on telling him that he must've done something wrong, because God is punishing him, but rather Job claims to not have done anything wrong? As for Satan, the ideas from OT to NT are very different. His motivations are mysterious. The real place where we get to explore him is in the temptations in the wilderness, contrasted against Christ. Maybe the language in which satan is described is different in the old and the new testament, but I think making too big a difference between the old and the new testament should generally be avoided. Off course there is a difference between the testaments, different covenants obviously, but the character of God, His relationship to mankind and many other things, like satan, were the same in the old testament, the new testament, and today. Read the above. Note that the righteous Jews in Babylon did nothing to bring Babylon down on their heads. They were stuck with consequences of somebody else. They couldn't ask forgiveness for something they didn't do, and it would be insulting if they did. What they needed to do was acknowledge that they required help and could not run a sovereign nation without a savior. This is the captivity mentality that came out of Egypt. Also, the Lockman Foundation suggests Job describes a man at around 2000-1500 BC. Chronologically, it puts it somewhere between Exodus and Samuel. Nehemiah and Ezra are about 470 BC. And yet we find it between the books about rebuilding Jerusalem and captivity, and smack before Lamentations and the Prophecies. Not trying to be rude, but your smugness gets a little bit of smug in return.
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Post by Paul on May 20, 2011 13:46:41 GMT -5
Jesus tended to believe the less 'believable' stories
He believed in Jonah, Noah, Adam and Eve, and says things "Your word is truth" and "The Scriptures cannot be broken"
Not to mention people who wrote the NT believed the events of the OT. James believed the story of Job actually happened. (James 5)
In summary it's not arrogant or stupid to believe the word of God, and it can be arrogant to call the scriptures stupid. But then you disagree with a lot of the bible
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Post by Azrael on May 21, 2011 22:28:24 GMT -5
Jesus tended to believe the less 'believable' stories He believed in Jonah, Noah, Adam and Eve, and says things "Your word is truth" and "The Scriptures cannot be broken" Not to mention people who wrote the NT believed the events of the OT. James believed the story of Job actually happened. (James 5) In summary it's not arrogant or stupid to believe the word of God, and it can be arrogant to call the scriptures stupid. But then you disagree with a lot of the bible Oh. Wow. A highly reductive understanding of the Bible based on "Well this is what I'm told and I'm too lazy to read footnotes." Were you one of the people that got a surprise at 6pm EST today? First of all, when you can find me a not ridiculously contextualized quote where Jesus affirms "truth" in some sense, I will stop laughing at you. That is tantamount to making an argument for the piety of shipbuilding and citing Noah as an example. James 5? Really? What you are referring to is James 5:11. Under your logic, all of the characters in Jesus' parables were real physical people too. Jude 1:14 quotes a passage from the apocryphal Book of Enoch. Under your logic, this quote affirms the inherent canonicity of the Book of Enoch and we should consider it along with the rest of the Apocryphal texts for inclusion. Somehow I doubt your Bible has those extra books. And I'm not calling scriptures stupid. I'm calling your simplistic interpretation of scriptures stupid. I am truly sorry that you have to hide your ideas behind some sort veil where if I disagree with them, I am a traitor to the cross, but I suggest it's time you step out of your hugbox and deal with the real world where people don't respect your ideas based on your unyielding respect for your own ideas. I don't disagree with any of the Bible. I disagree with how boneheads like you insist on dumbing it down until people like Christopher Hitchens can waltz through it with no effort and make you look like a moron. Here's the thing about language: it's relative. Now I expect some bs argument about how "I'M AN ANGRY PERSON AND RELATIVISM IS FALSE......2=/=3 SEE I'M RIGHT. OH AND SAYING THERE'S NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH IS SAYING IT ABSOLUTELY SO HA." Now that we have that out of the way we can move on. Language is relative. If you have more than a high school education in English, this is something you should have already learned and understood. Words and even visual representation are relative because the relation of one human to another is relative. All communication is relative. Even communication written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. You can see where this is going. Hebrew is an incredibly dense language. Almost all of the words have an ocean of connotations and implications that don't speak to us. To assume you have anywhere near the "full story" is banal and downright dumb. Even assuming you are capable of getting the "full story" is asinine. There are contradictions in the Bible. Some stories don't line up. Sometimes it's copy error. Sometimes it's actual discrepancies. Righteous Lot offered his two daughters to a crowd to be gangraped. Surely you don't expect the Bible to be offering such a blanket approval of Lot and his behavior. The important thing is that there are things happening outside the text. The text became flesh and became even more understandable to people. Yet it still wasn't complete. Only when the Holy Spirit was sent was true universal communication possible. Reading the Bible as a document where the entire truth is on the page is completely stupid. Jesus wouldn't have bothered if that were the case. There are contradictions in the Bible that you can't argue away. And you shouldn't. That's where the New Atheism wins. What should be understood is that if you choose to look at everything as a communication of binary information, your math textbook ain't true either (seeing how numbers and letters are some arbitrary designation of semiology to describe nonphysical metaphysical entities. Oh wait, that kind of sounds like parts the Bible......)
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Post by Paul on May 21, 2011 22:59:59 GMT -5
There's no love in anything you say, it genuinely worries me
I understand parables and logic, I also understand that James referenced Job as if he existed, please don't twist my logic or extend it to everything. Have a nice day
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