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Post by skully on Jun 21, 2011 3:07:18 GMT -5
I know this may sound weird, but hear me out. My dad takes me to a baptist church (since he's baptist) and for some reason they believe it's sinful to allow a female preacher. why is that? both men and women are equal and they have the same ability to teach. Weren't both Adam and eve kicked out of the Garden of Eden as punishment for sin? Weren't they both decieved? Shouldn' t that be enough proof that God made man and woman equal? please don't take this as a joke because many christian churches believe that it is sinful to have female preachers. what i'd like to know is why they'd believe that and if there are any scriptures that support this belief then please tell me. it's mainly because of reasons like this that I'm a non-denominational (in other words I only believe in God and the Bible and nothing else).
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Post by Maarten on Jun 21, 2011 5:30:11 GMT -5
The main scripture to support this is Timothy 2:11-15:
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."
I'm not entirely sure how to interpret this verse.
They don't allow female pastors in my church either. My church is a cooperation of two denominations one of which does since this year allow female pastors and the other does not.
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Post by Radiant Magnificence Alastair on Jun 21, 2011 5:39:40 GMT -5
Incorrect. No one is equal, otherwise everyone would be identical clones.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they were both equal.
Of course a female isn't sinning if shes a preacher, unless God didn't want this specific person to be one of course. I think you have to take into account the audience who that New Testament writer was talking about when he was talking about females preaching.
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Post by davo on Jun 21, 2011 13:16:01 GMT -5
No, I don't believe it is. If I did, I'd have a massive problem on my hands on Saturday (the minister taking charge of mine and Clare's wedding and the preacher are both female and ordained in the Methodist church)
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Post by zaoman32 on Jun 21, 2011 14:59:41 GMT -5
The verse in 2 Tim is easily misinterpreted. It doesn't say woman aren't allowed to preach, as many churchs believe. It says they are not allowed to teach or assume authority over a man. I have no problem with female preachers, but when it comes to women teaching men, and being their spiritual guide it's a different matter.
I like to read things that are written for men, and about men, but I'm not interested in reading a book about being a husband or father, that has been written by woman. And I'm not going to seek spiritual guidance for being a better man by going to a woman, because a woman doesn't know anymore about being a man, than a man knows about being a woman.
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Post by skully on Jun 21, 2011 22:54:04 GMT -5
so is the 2nd verse in timothy the only verse that says that? it would be great if someone could better interpret the verse because to be honest i kinda find it really sexist but i guess that's just the way women were treated back then.
@alastair: could you elaborate a little more on the "clone" part? i don't mean as in the extremely litteral "equality" but as in the way we think and act. i meant as in we're both equal because we're both sinners and we both have equal punishment for our sins
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Post by Jeremy on Jun 21, 2011 23:32:31 GMT -5
This thread makes me think of King of the Hill.
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Post by Radiant Magnificence Alastair on Jun 22, 2011 0:01:21 GMT -5
Are humans similar to each other? Yeah. God doesn't view us all equally, he has favourites - he even had best friends on earth!
We all think and act differently, because we are not equal, we are all different with varying levels of skills/intelligence/etc.
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Post by Maarten on Jun 22, 2011 7:55:00 GMT -5
so is the 2nd verse in timothy the only verse that says that? it would be great if someone could better interpret the verse because to be honest i kinda find it really sexist but i guess that's just the way women were treated back then. Well, throughout the bible with very little exceptions whenever God chooses somebody for an authoritative function, like a prophet or a leader of Israel etc., God chooses a man. One might argue that this is a cultural thing, but I'm quite sure God wouldn't be dragged down to cultural prejudice about the difference between males and females when He chooses a person to do His will. I think the verse in 1 Timothy does not prohibit female preaching as much as it prohibits women assuming an authoritative teaching function over a man, thus prohibiting women from becoming elders or pastors. Clearly, throughout the bible, God has used women to teach us, but very very rarely in an authoritative function over men. The bible also clearly teaches man and women are equal, in the sense that they are equally valuable and worthy. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28) The bible does also clearly acknowledge that there are differences in male and female nature, in such passages as 1 Timothy 2. I believe it is very important to acknowledge these differences, after all, God has created males as males and females as females for a reason, thus regardless of what these differences are and regardless what these differences will mean in practice, accepting that there are certain differences in between males and females, ordained by God through the work of His creation, is a must. Therefore feminism ,in the sense that it doesn't matter whether one is male or female, we're all the same, we're all equal etc., is clearly contrary to what God has revealed us on these matters in His word and in His creation. What exactly we should to with the differences between males and females in regard to certain function in the church, I'm not entirely sure; I'm inclined to say, based on 1 Timothy 2 that women should not become pastors or elders, but I'm not too sure on that one.
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Post by zaoman32 on Jun 22, 2011 7:59:13 GMT -5
It's good to keep in mind too, that though woman aren't in authoritative positions in the bible, they are very highly esteemed. The first people Christ presented himself as the Messiah to, were women, and there are very many other examples.
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2011 12:08:32 GMT -5
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Post by skully on Jun 22, 2011 17:10:18 GMT -5
@ Maarten: ok, thanks for the explanation @paul: no, I didn't mean "interpret" as to make it fit better with my personal beliefs, but as in to make that verse more understandable without changing the meaning. @ Jeremy: lol same here now that you mention it. Well i guess the purpose of this thread has been served....feel free to hijack it if you want
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Post by clareabel on Jun 23, 2011 9:28:15 GMT -5
Homosexuality is okay though...
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Post by Paul on Jun 23, 2011 19:26:05 GMT -5
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Post by clareabel on Jun 24, 2011 9:25:10 GMT -5
Lol. I love the sarcasm there.
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