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Post by Azrael on Jul 25, 2011 21:30:07 GMT -5
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/anders-behring-breivik-norway-attackswww.reuters.com/article/2011/07/26/us-norway-idUSL6E7IN00C201107262083: A European Declaration of IndependenceThe American Right has already disowned him for his actions. The Left has begun to document his ideology and gleefully prepare for their next accusations (Finally, they have something more sinister than clinic-bombers when talking about Christian terrorism. After all, McVeigh was an agnostic.). Muslims everywhere are overjoyed that they can feign outrage over 78 deaths (Eh, celebration is premature. They still killed 108 people this week.) But what are the actual issues here? I have some fundamental questions about what has happened here, what is happening, and what will continue to happen. 1. How can we combat the spread of Islam (and yes, Islam is objectively bad, take it from somebody who has read the Hadith, the Suras, and a biography or two of the prophet) when our attempts to promote pacifism and multi-culturalism work against us? 2. Does that mean violence is an acceptable means to combat Islam? 3. What level of violence is acceptable? What is too much? 4. Does this resonate with a Christian world-view, or are we called to be cannon-fodder until the medieval barbarians finally get sick of killing us and have that "revelation" that Jesus loves them and that they need to love other people? (Because I am getting skeptical.) I might be a post-modernist, but I have a great deal of faith in the Western Heritage. However one of the greatest weaknesses it has is an openness and kindness which craven ideologies can take advantage of. My initial reaction to Islam involves an assault rifle in my house and a stern warning to anyone who would seek to bring Allah into my house. But is this an acceptable Christian position? Should it be? Breivik's actions aside, what I have read from his Manifesto (admittedly up to page 11) seems in line with contemporary Conservative thought. He sees the problems going on. He diagnoses them. He seems level-headed and coherent. His writings do not come off with the typical McVeigh/Manson/Seung Hui/Loughner narcissistic/pseudointellectual babble. That makes his actions a bit more fearful. The politicians he attacked were responsible by participation for the Islamization of Norway and therefore party to the honor-killings, genital mutilations, and gay-beatings in the nation. I do feel he overstepped significantly, however I can see where he was coming from.
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Post by Maarten on Jul 26, 2011 6:36:58 GMT -5
1. How can we combat the spread of Islam (and yes, Islam is objectively bad, take it from somebody who has read the Hadith, the Suras, and a biography or two of the prophet) when our attempts to promote pacifism and multi-culturalism work against us? The only thing we can do individually is evangelise among Muslims. As a Christian, I believe all ideologies and religions apart from Christianity are bad, atheism, Islam and all other world-views alike. The bible condemns using violence to spread the gospel. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12 No level of violence is acceptable, as an individual. It is however the duty of the state to persecute those who violate the law. So if a Muslim is involved in honour-killing or whatever, off course the government should persecute that person according to the law. If a certain movement within the Islam clearly spreads and preaches violence, the government may want to use preventive means against that specific movement within the Islam. This again is no special persecution against the Islam, but simply in accordance with the law that condemns incitement to violence. However, as long as Muslims adhere the law and are normal functioning members of society, and many are just that, than nothing should be done against them obviously. You must have very little faith in God if you don't believe Muslims can and will be converted. God can show His love to Muslims as much as He does to us. Whenever the Muslim break the law, the government should not hesitate to take action against them, but as individual Christian and as the Church we can do nothing more than preach the gospel, and trust in God that He will redeem. I would like to end this by saying I've never felt threatened by a Muslim or by the Islam; I'm generally more wary of people who keep assault rifles in their house.
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Post by Jeremy on Jul 26, 2011 10:14:31 GMT -5
The only thing we can do individually is evangelise among Muslims. As a Christian, I believe all ideologies and religions apart from Christianity are bad, atheism, Islam and all other world-views alike. "If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through. If you are an atheist you do have to believe that the main point in all the religions of the whole world is simply one huge mistake. If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all those religions, even the queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth. When I was an atheist I had to try to persuade myself that most of the human race have always been wrong about the question that mattered to them most; when I became a Christian I was able to take a more liberal view. But, of course, being a Christian does mean thinking that where Christianity differs from other religions, Christianity is right and they are wrong. As in arithmetic—there is only one right answer to a sum, and all other answers are wrong; but some of the wrong answers are much nearer being right than others." "The world does not consist of 100 percent Christians and 100 percent non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but who still call themselves by that name: some of them are clergymen." "There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand." "There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position. And always, of course, there are a great many people who are just confused in mind and have a lot of inconsistent beliefs all jumbled up together. Consequently, it is not much use trying to make judgments about Christians and non-Christians in the mass." - C.S. Lewis
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Post by Maarten on Jul 26, 2011 10:49:05 GMT -5
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters"
- Jesus Christ
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Post by Jeremy on Jul 26, 2011 11:21:01 GMT -5
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Post by Azrael on Jul 26, 2011 19:31:23 GMT -5
I was hoping a more polite and patient like-minded individual would point out some of the ridiculous points here, but I guess it's me. 1. How can we combat the spread of Islam (and yes, Islam is objectively bad, take it from somebody who has read the Hadith, the Suras, and a biography or two of the prophet) when our attempts to promote pacifism and multi-culturalism work against us? The only thing we can do individually is evangelise among Muslims. As a Christian, I believe all ideologies and religions apart from Christianity are bad, atheism, Islam and all other world-views alike. I'm failing to see how evangelism has been effective with Muslims. We've been evangelizing them for 1,400 years. And they've been killing us for as long. Forgive me for not seeing results from this method. A fallacy of petitio principii. I never said anything about spreading the Gospel or suggested that was the goal of violence. I suggested ending Islam was. There are manifold ways of ending a regime or ideology without supplanting it with another. Nobody complained about the "violent evangelism" of Nazis. I'll get back to this later. But let's just say the individual and the government are one and the same. Oh har har har. I don't think the best answer to Islam is to kneel down and let them make my mother wear a burkah, cut the hand off my friend who stole something once, hang one of my gay friends and do all sorts of other brutal and barbaric things therefore I am the bad Christian. The government is not some distinct entity that makes everything ok. The government is the individual (except in Socialist hell-holes). The law starts with the individual. The government is merely a collective representation of the individuals' values. When you have a government "persecute" a group, you are complicit in it. So your insistence that we need to let the government handle the "persecution" to avoid bloodying our hands does not fly. And as for having little faith, I guess you never heard about the 400 years where Muslims slaughtered Christians who prayed and prayed and prayed for an end from Spain to Constantinople to Syria. Nothing happened. You know what happened? Around 1000 AD the Pope drummed up an army and kicked the Saracens out of Europe and secured the Holy Land for a few hundred years. Huh. I guess swords do work sometimes. Honey, if you aren't threatened by Islam, you simply haven't read enough about it. www.thereligionofpeace.com/If you get through all of that and still aren't frightened of it, you just might be a Muslim. And all utopian idealist control-freaks labor under the delusion that all world problems would end when private firearm ownership drops to zero. At the end of the day, gun ownership is another kettle of fish. But let me assure you, you are on the wrong side.
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Post by Maarten on Jul 27, 2011 5:32:42 GMT -5
Hmm, maybe my post was a bit, uhm, simple-minded. Even though there is a fair number of non-western immigrants in the city and the neighbourhood where I live - the only mosque in town is in the part of the city where I live - I've never felt threatened personally by the Islam. However, as the site you've posted proven, there are significant movements in the Islam that are dangerous and do advocate violence. I believe we should combat those groups in the Islam that advocate violence or other unlawful things and any group within any religion that does the same, through the judicial system, because they violate the law. I don't think any further action is reasonable.
Do you think the Islam as a whole should be combated, including those individuals who associate themselves with the Islam, even though they function fine within our Western society? And how would you want to combat it?
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Post by Paul on Jul 27, 2011 12:36:42 GMT -5
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Post by Jeremy on Jul 27, 2011 14:45:41 GMT -5
Contrary to what some believe, the U.S. is NOT a Christian nation. DEAL WITH IT.
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Post by Josh on Jul 27, 2011 16:42:39 GMT -5
Contrary to what some believe, the U.S. is NOT a Christian nation. DEAL WITH IT. What people actually believe that? its so far from the truth it hurts.
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Post by Jeremy on Jul 27, 2011 17:39:10 GMT -5
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Post by Josh on Jul 27, 2011 18:32:59 GMT -5
The US is a heathen country, there is no other way of seeing it, anyone who thinks otherwise is full of s**t.
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Post by Azrael on Jul 28, 2011 15:49:11 GMT -5
Don't care if the US is a Christian nation or not.
I don't need to say we are to suggest we shouldn't be an Islamic one.
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Post by Josh on Jul 28, 2011 19:57:54 GMT -5
Any nation that is controlled or ruled by religion will be doomed to fail
whether it be christian, islam or whatever the f**k.
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Post by Paul on Jul 28, 2011 20:51:51 GMT -5
Every nation is doomed to fail at some point
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