|
Post by Kerrick on Dec 6, 2011 14:56:47 GMT -5
Alright I'd like to get some of you folks' thoughts on these matters. So I've noticed that in the past year-and-a-half I've had a LOT more spiritual/demonic attacks (in my dreams and while awake late at night) than I ever have had in the past. I spoke with a good friend of mine and she seems to believe that such attacks are caused by us making ourselves vulnerable, i.e. having "footholds" for those evil forces to get at us through. This could look like watching bad movies or listening to dark music or being addicted to porn, etc. She also believes that we can become impervious to these attacks by keeping ourselves in check and walking closely to God. That doesn't account really for, as an example, people on mission-trips that experience wild spiritual warfare. That also doesn't account for situations in The Bible like Job's attack or Satan interacting with Adam and Eve. But what she said definitely does have relevancy. And if that's the case, how does one determine what those footholds might be in one's life? What are the reasons for being attacked? Are there "rules" about who demons can/can't torment?
|
|
|
Post by Ferd Berfel on Dec 6, 2011 18:09:07 GMT -5
Funny... I've been experiencing a lot of the same things over the last year or so. I've even experienced physical manifestations of demons; I've heard them, felt them, and even seen them.
I have been doing a lot of study on spiritual warfare lately, I'll come back and post some more information later.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrick on Dec 6, 2011 18:20:28 GMT -5
Cool, thanks. I definitely appreciate it. I've heard them, felt them, and even seen them. Me too...
|
|
|
Post by skully on Dec 8, 2011 22:56:17 GMT -5
same here, i've literally been seeing demons ever since i was in 6th grade and honestly, i used to think i was going insane; but some tiny voice deep down inside told me i wasn't. in matter of fact, i've seen both angels and demons, i even once saw my own guardian angel before and i once had to drive out hordes of demons out of my own bedroom. most of the time both angels and demons appear basically in some cloud/shadow-like form but the difference is that with demons, i can tell what they are because 1) i'll end up feeling really uneasy or scared for no reason...which i guess is like a 6th sense. 2) if i do see them, they're way darker than any natural shadow in my house. as for angels they're nearly the same except that they're way brighter than any natural light and of course i'd end up having a peaceful feeling. as for your friend, kerrick, she is right on a few degrees, but you're more likely to experience demonic encounters if you're doing some close, spiritual kind of thing like going on a mission trip. the main reason why is because, of course, they don't want you to. what your friend is really talking about is that if you create demonic "foot holds" in your life then you're giving yourself a greater chance to actually become possessed by demons; and i'm not talking about the crappy exorcist kind-of thing. for example with porn, it can easily start off as lust, then the desire and obssession with pornography comes in, and then you'll most likely move up to actually raping someone. there are many biblical passages that suport this theory, but i don't remember what they are at the moment, however i will post them on here
|
|
|
Post by skully on Dec 8, 2011 23:08:06 GMT -5
oh yeah, almost forgot to mention... there really are no "rules" for who can or can't be tormented. however, since demons still do actually obey God, they have no right to actually kill anyone. i'm not saying God allows demons to torment us just for fun or anything, but the main reasons why are for chastisement or, in Job's example, as a test for you to prove that you are faithful in Christ. it even mentions in Job that God told Satan that he can use demons to torment Job all he wants, but never to where it's more than he can bear and he isn't allowed to kill him.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrick on Dec 9, 2011 17:24:05 GMT -5
Thanks Skully for your input. Do you believe that someone with the Holy Spirit dwelling within them can be possessed by a demon? I tend to agree with you with respect to spiritual warfare becoming more apparent in situations such as missions trips, etc. Actually, after college, I was in a somewhat spiritually-apathetic place, though a few months later I began getting much more involved in church as well as much more diligent/intentional about seeking God - which may (at least somewhat) shed light on the subject as the time-frame matches. Though what you said about allowing sin to creep into our lives and drastically pull us away from God is totally true. I doubt most lustful teenage boys end up as rapists due to looking at porn, though I understand what you're saying and I agree. It's definitely something to be aware of within our lives and making sure we don't allow Satan to get a foothold in us to exploit.
It seems some folks deal with such spiritual warfare much more than others. Is it possible that it's a spiritual gift/strength God has given us to further His kingdom? There is spiritual warfare going on all around us all the time: maybe some people are just, for whatever reason, more aware of it and therefore targets? Some people have better hearing than others or better vision, etc. so maybe it's not too much of a stretch to believe that some folks can sense demonic/angelic activity more?
|
|
|
Post by skully on Dec 10, 2011 5:07:40 GMT -5
you're welcome first of all i do believe it is possible for someone to become possessed by a demon even if they have the Holy Spirit within them, however it can't be as severe as it could if you didn't have the Holy Spirit; but like I said, it depends on how far you let the possession go. as for your second question, the ability to see or have other interactions is indeed a spiritual gift as quoted in 1 Corinthians 12:10 where it mentions "to another distinguishing between spirits." On the other hand though, sometimes God does allow someone to have an encounter with a spiritual being whether it be for chastisement, or as a way to get the person to actually believe in God. I do totally agree with you that some people are a lot more sensitive to the spiritual world (like for instance it's extremely rare that i'd ever feel or hear demons/angels, but i do definitely see them or can even sense them). even if you are more sensitive to the spiritual world, it does not make you more of a target. basically anybody can be a target but in a general sense, anything you do that makes you closer to God and pisses off Satan will make you more vulnerable to attacks because, of course, Satan does not want that to happen. For instance i once had a friend who went to a winter retreat with me several years ago. during that time he became a christian and he told me that on that same night a demon came, pinned him down in a crucifix form, and repeatedly beat on his chest. he even told me that his screams woke other people up who were in his cabin and one of the other people claimed to see a black, shadowy creature run away into the wilderness after the victim was screaming Jesus' name. point being, this guy never saw demons nor had any other kinds of encounters before in his life, but just because of the fact that he became a Christian, it led him to be attacked. as for the biblical passages i mentioned before, i found them in a PDF file talking about expelling evil spirits. i highly encourage you to read it, it is indeed very helpful: www.lulu.com/items/volume_67/8310000/8310968/1/print/8310968.pdf
|
|
|
Post by Maarten on Dec 10, 2011 7:33:00 GMT -5
When asking the question whether someone can be 'possessed' by a demon when one has the Holy Spirit the question what exactly is 'possession' by a demon should be asked. I don't think true believers who have (been baptised with) the Holy Spirit can be properly possessed by a demon in the way that we see demons physically controlling people in the Bible. I do think they can have an influence in your life if you give them a 'foothold', but I'm not quite sure to what extent.
I've never really experienced spiritual warfare in the way people are describing it in this thread, but from what I can tell in my own life, there is a vast difference between spiritual struggles when you are about to go on a mission trip or something and when you give them a foothold. In the former it seems to me it is simply the enemy's goal to scare/discourage/distract you from the things you ought to be doing, but it's really all external. If you give them a foothold however it seems to me that there can be a more internal struggle. Well, that is really just an observation; not some great principle from the Bible.
I think generally people should refrain from developing an extensive demonology/angelology because the Bible doesn't say a whole lot about it.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremy on Dec 10, 2011 18:13:06 GMT -5
* I am in no way an expert in this field
Yes, I believe in spiritual warfare. I believe both believers and nonbelievers can be attacked/tempted/etc etc etc. The difference is, Christians probably have more of a chance of noticing it where as nonbelievers don't because they're sort of living in ignorance (to drastically simplify it). Though, I would think that only nonbelievers can be possessed. Also, I believe that Christians who are strong in their faith can be attacked too. Probably even more so than less strong Christians because they pose the biggest threat. An attempt to take out the bigger threat in the long run. The devil wants us all.
side note: I also think some people can be in-tune spiritually more so than others. Or maybe some can... and then eventually ignore it causing their in-tuneness to lessen. What I'm talking about is the ability to sense evil, sense evil spirits, and sense danger (etc etc etc).
*** There's a fine line between true spiritual warfare and the age old excuse of "the devil made me do it."
|
|
|
Post by Kerrick on Dec 13, 2011 18:28:33 GMT -5
Thanks everyone. That's a lot to chew on... And thanks Skully for the link to the PDF. I haven't got a chance to read through it yet but will soon. I had another dream just two nights ago. Unfortunately I can only remember fragments of it and the line between reality and dreams is pretty blurry with it as well. Crazy stuff...
|
|
|
Post by skully on Dec 13, 2011 23:15:13 GMT -5
you're welcome bro ...well i guess it's officially time to troll and spam on this thread
|
|
|
Post by Ferd Berfel on Dec 16, 2011 14:30:39 GMT -5
Well, it's taken me long enough to get back to this, I suppose. I was going to write a lot more on it, but I've been getting caught up in my life lately so I'll just say what I'm going to say here.
First of all, I want to address this:
It is absolutely, 100% impossible for a truly saved Christian to be possessed by a demon. By definition, possession indicates control; one cannot serve both the satanic and the Godly. Therefore, a Christian that is saved cannot be possessed by a demon. The Bible is very clear on that.
However, Christians can be oppressed, depressed, suppressed, repressed, and any other kind of -pressed word. This is different than possession, because it constitutes an attack, rather than control. When a Christian gives in to the temptations that inevitably come packaged with these attacks, it does not constitute possession; rather, the Christian has made a choice to do the wrong thing. Now, should one give in to temptations and lose one's salvation, that would potentially open the door for possession. Still, giving into temptation does not necessarily predicate possession. There is a big difference between the two.
I'd like to give a little background, seeing as how I haven't been posting actively here for some time. I've been around, lurking and reading all the posts that have been here, but I haven't said much because I haven't had time to hold conversations for awhile.
As I'm pretty sure all of you know, I got married last year in May. Since then, I have stopped attending college (I was studying to become an English teacher) and I have begun working at my church full time. God placed a call upon my life to leadership in ministry, so I am studying to become a pastor. I'm not attending any kind of seminary; I am studying directly under the pastor of my church (who has been a pastor for about 30 years).
Now, as you can probably imagine, answering the call of God to become a full time minister is going to open a lot of doors to warfare of all kinds. As my mentor likes to say, "When you live in a glass house, you'll be amazed how many rocks people have to throw."
There have been several key things I have learned about spiritual warfare from good, old-fashioned experience and study.
1. Spiritual warfare is often subtle. The truth of the matter is that for every attack you've recognized in your life, there have been many more that you've probably completely missed.
Now, let me state this right up front: the devil and his demons are not omnipresent, nor are they omnipotent, nor are they omniscient. They certainly would like us to believe otherwise; after all, if they were, they would certainly be something to fear. However, only God is truly all powerful, all knowing, and all present. Satan and his demons are finite beings, and while they do have significant power, it most definitely has limits.
That being said, the most common tactic in spiritual warfare is subtlety. As they say, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he did not exist. Physical manifestations of demons are uncommon, and it most certainly is not a preferred tactic.
Think about it this way: If I am confident in what I believe and my right standing with God through Jesus Christ, the attack I deal with will not be depressive; I will not hear that whispering voice in the back of my mind trying to say words of discouragement. I am much too strong in my faith to ever believe those things. Instead, that same little voice will try to insert just a single seed of pride within my heart. My confidence, if I am not guarded, can quickly turn to arrogance and self-righteousness. This is the meaning of subtlety.
Likewise, a new Christian, likely not as certain of his own right standing with God, will be the one to suffer the depressive attack. I myself have often found that these sorts of attacks come when I am weakest physically, with a tremendous sickness. I begin to doubt the healing grace of God, and in doing so I am succumbing to spiritual attack.
One of the biggest ones that I personally struggle with is distraction. I tend to be a workaholic; for me, a week isn't worth having unless I've got about 90 hours worth of stuff to do. Now, there is nothing about work itself that is inherently bad; rather, the motives behind that work are the things that can quickly become negative. For instance, I do a lot of work on events for my church. When doing this sort of work, it is always important to remain focused on the purpose of why I am there: to see lost souls won to the kingdom of God. However, when working so fervently on a large project, it is very easy to lose sight of the purpose and instead focus solely on just being there. That slight shift in attitude is enough to entirely throw away all the work I have done and turn it to a pile of over-budgeted rubbish. It is a simple, subtle attack; yet if I am not continuously vigilant, it will quickly take hold and prevail.
The bottom line: spiritual warfare is subtle and almost unnoticeable many times, unless you know what you are looking for. If you want to ever be successful in spiritual warfare, you must constantly pray that God will help you stay vigilant, and remember to "put on the full armor of God" as given in Ephesians 6.
2. Spiritual attacks often come through those closest to us.
Think about it: what is the easiest way to hurt someone? You could use a stranger; it is possible that words from someone I don't know could offend me or make me angry. But if you truly want to hurt someone, you would want to turn their closest friend against them. Nothing hurts more than betrayal.
Again, this is a subtle tactic. Perhaps my wife does something that I find irritating, and I've already had a terribly stressful day. Rather than act rationally, I let my frustration and anger get the best of me and I lash out. In doing this, I have hurt her a thousand times more deeply than any stranger could, simply by the position that I hold in her life. I have given in to the temptation of my anger, and in doing so I have given a foothold to the enemy in my marriage. Now she struggles with the things I said or did and she becomes upset, perhaps for a long time. It causes division, and the attack is successful.
It is the same in many things; the best-intentioned words spoken in the wrong tone, or at the wrong time, and suddenly your heart is aching and you are angry over something foolish.
Another excellent example is the pastor's wife. To put it simply, the pastor is the face of the ministry, but it is his wife that is the greatest load-bearer (or in the case of a female pastor, her husband). The enemy wants to tear down the pastor, but knows that the pastor is vigilant enough to be a very difficult target directly. So, he uses that subtle means of attack to manipulate some people in the congregation to speak ill of the pastor's wife; in tearing her down, the pastor's heart begins to break and he will feel discouraged in his ministry. This provides a foothold, and things can grow worse from there.
The bottom line: the easiest way to hurt someone is through those they care about most. Whether you manipulate that person into harming their friend directly, or you manipulate others into harming that person until their friend becomes outraged, using those closest to the person you are trying to attack is a cruel but effective tactic to use against those who are not vigilant.
We must be solid in our relationships with others, and unafraid of confrontation in a spirit of love. If we ignore issues, we are potentially giving a foothold to the enemy and opening the door to many more attacks.
3. I don't believe that there are those who are more/less sensitive, there are simply those who pay more/less attention.
I spent some time with a friend from Africa. His name is Philemon, and he has a church of over 3000 people in Kenya. Philemon, coming from a third-world country, has experienced spiritual warfare in a way that many people from the first world could never even imagine. He said something to me that really stuck in my mind: People in the first world do not experience spiritual warfare like the third world because we spend too much time drowning it out. Things like demonic possessions and physical manifestations of demons occur all the time in third-world countries, and they are nearly universally shared experiences. This is not so in the first world.
Think about it: How often during the day do you turn off everything and sit in total silence? How often during the week do you spend in prayer and study of the scriptures? How often during the week do you actually spend immersing yourself in spiritual things, and doing so in total silence? See, in the first world, we spend so much time inundating our senses with physical stimuli that we have spiritually blinded ourselves.
Certainly, I believe that God will only allow you to experience what you can handle, but I also believe that the people who are the most sensitive to these things are two things: first of all, they completely believe in the spiritual reality that they are experiencing; secondly, they actually take the time to shut down their physical stimuli and pray for God to reveal to them the spiritual realm.
This is not to discount the reality of spiritual gifts, such as the discerning of spirits (a gift which I have been blessed with), but I think that everyone has the ability to be sensitive to these things, if they would only take the time to pray and pay attention.
The bottom line: Everyone has the ability to sense and experience spiritual things, but as technology and science advance, we begin to tune them out and explain them away. If you want to experience the spiritual, you have to take the time to sit silently and pray; God will reveal things to you on a need-to-know basis.
4. The more involved you are in spiritual warfare, the nastier it becomes.
My mentor says it this way, "When you recognize the devil, he'll start pushing back. He wants to see how naked he really is." The more time you spend focusing on the spiritual realm, the more you will recognize and experience spiritual warfare. It is a daily occurrence for me; not a day goes by that I do not deal with several attacks of various natures.
Furthermore, for those of us involved in ministry (and if you're a Christian, you've been called to serve in ministry), spiritual warfare increases exponentially. If you're just a Christian, content to sit in the middle or back row of the church once a week and not really do anything else, the devil doesn't perceive you as much of a threat. It is once you begin to step out and obey the command of God to witness to people that the devil will sit up and take notice. When you reach into his little pot of souls and begin (with God's grace) to pull them out one by one, he's not going to be happy. The devil will do anything to keep you from accomplishing your ministry. To put it simply, when you answer the call of God on your life, all of literal hell will break loose in your life.
This last October, on Sunday the 30th, I delivered a sermon on evangelism. The above paragraph is part of that sermon. It was not 7 hours later that I was participating as the host of an evangelistic Halloween event that our church was putting on. A police officer showed up to our event due to a noise complaint, took my information and in the full presence of my entire cast threatened to arrest me.
Now, I was nothing but respectful to the officer; in fact I said nothing but "Yes sir" and "no sir". The striking part of this is the fact that just a few blocks away was another event much like ours that was also playing some music outdoors; in fact, their music was much louder than ours. The only difference between the two respective events is that ours was a church event, and the other was simply a secular celebration (complete with copious amounts of alcohol).
I quickly gathered the cast around and explained the situation, and we all prayed together. I was not arrested, but I was given a very stern warning and threatened once more with arrest should I or any of my cast play music outside again. This is an example of spiritual attack. We were not doing anything in violation of city codes, yet the simple fact that what we were doing had Christian roots left us an open target to such things. There was no grounds on which the officer could have arrested me, but the threat alone was enough to make several of my cast members want to quit entirely. After more encouragement and prayer, the rest of my cast began to realize what I was trying to tell them: the more successful you are in your ministry, the more you will be attacked. We proceeded with our event, continuing to do exactly what we had done before the officer showed up, and absolutely nothing happened to me or anyone else. In fact, the next night the same officer showed up again; this time, he came to apologize to me. I had an opportunity to minister to him and invite him to church.
The same sort of things have happened many times to me and my church while having ministries in public areas. My church has always been careful to secure the proper licenses and permits, yet in every event we have held publicly in Flagstaff, the police have shown up and told us that we had to turn down (or turn off) our volume level, despite every piece of monitoring equipment we had showing clearly that we were well within acceptable limits. The fact of the matter is that when one begins to proclaim the Gospel, spiritual attacks will abound relentlessly.
The bottom line: every Christian is called to be in ministry; when we answer God's call on our lives, all of literal hell is going to break loose. Spiritual warfare becomes more difficult the more successful you are, but do not be discouraged by this. Rather, let it spur you on to minister even more fervently, for if you are suffering persecution and attack, you know that you are being successful.
5. There is absolutely nothing to fear in spiritual warfare, because we are covered in the blood of Jesus.
Fear is nothing more than a weapon of the enemy. It is his greatest weapon, especially when you are dealing with physically manifested demons (which I have experienced on numerous occasions). Feeling fear is, in and of itself, not a sin, but giving into it is allowing the enemy a victory. We are promised in the Bible that we will be victorious, and that we have been given all authority over spirits and principalities (Mark 16:17, Matthew 16:19, Isaiah 54:17, Romans 8:37-39, Psalm 91).
Through Jesus we have been given authority and power to say to demonic spirits, "Go!" and they must go. We are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ; because of His sacrifice we have been made whole and we have been promised the victory in the end.
In almost every encounter I have had with the demonic in the physical realm, fear becomes powerfully apparent. It is only when I plead the blood of Jesus and begin to speak the Word that this fear gives way to righteous confidence and authority; this is our weapon. Ephesians 6:17 says that the sword of the spirit is the word of God, the Bible is our weapon. Not the physical book, but rather the words and precepts within it. Hebrews 4:12 demonstrates the power of the word of God, a sword sharp enough to divide spirit and soul.
In spiritual warfare we must know that we should never fear. Certainly, fear will come and go, but we must recognize it as a foul weapon from the father of lies, and we must cast it down. As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 10 4-5, our weapons have divine power to demolish demonic strongholds. We destroy arguments and imagination and any thought that elevates itself above knowledge of Christ. Fear is one of those strongholds, one of those thoughts; we know that the enemy of our souls has absolutely no power, so we know that we can cast him out with the Word of God.
6. The more you come to know and talk about spiritual warfare, the less likely some people are to believe you.
While it is frustrating, it is also true. Especially in the first world (as I discussed before), people who have not experienced walking into a room and feeling a powerful pair of hands pushing back on you, only to have those hands disappear when you claim the blood of Jesus; people who have not experienced slamming doors and physically visible demonic creatures standing before them will find it extremely hard to take seriously.
To those of you who have not experienced these things, but wish to, I encourage you to pray. God will reveal these things to you if you take the time to understand them and pray. There is no reason to fear, for God will not allow you to go through what you cannot handle.
Finally to everyone reading this, I want to reiterate that as long as you are a Christian, you have absolutely no reason to fear the demonic. They are not all powerful, they are not all knowing and they are not everywhere; not everything we experience in life is a demonic attack, sometimes it is just our own rebellious flesh rising up against us. If you pray for discernment, God will give it to you. As in everything, we should ultimately strive for a closer relationship with God. Jesus said to his disciples to not rejoice that demons are subject to them; rather, rejoice that your names are written in the Book of Life.
I hope all of this made sense; it's a lot longer than I thought it would be, but at least I think I said everything I wanted to say. The unfortunate (fortunate?) side of becoming a pastor is that the more you study, the more you have to say about things like this. I never understood how pastors could write 1 1/2 hour sermons until I started writing them myself...
|
|
|
Post by Ferd Berfel on Dec 16, 2011 14:31:59 GMT -5
My goodness, that was seven pages in Microsoft Word. Sorry for the length, but I just had to get it all out.
|
|
|
Post by Maarten on Dec 16, 2011 17:09:48 GMT -5
When discussing these things, I think we should be careful not to ascribe to much to the demonic. That whispering voice in the back of my mind, trying to discourage me, might just as well be my own sinful and faithless mind, making up excuses for not pursuing the things of God, rather than anything explicitly demonic. Mankind has a fallen nature, after all. We've got plenty of wicked thoughts of our own, so I don't really see why there should be any spiritual cause for these things.
Those sorts of things are off course very different from the clearly supernatural; I don't mean to deny demonic manifestations or anything like that, those are clearly Biblical and I have witnessed some degree of these things myself.
|
|
|
Post by Ferd Berfel on Dec 17, 2011 4:26:48 GMT -5
^ To respond to that, let me point out these two things that I said:
Furthermore, let me say that while not everything we might experience of that nature is necessarily spiritual warfare, we must not be quick to dismiss it without being cautiously vigilant. It is only wise to be on your guard as much as possible.
|
|