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Post by pray7for7give7ness on Oct 1, 2010 0:43:26 GMT -5
I have been a firm believer in Christ since I was a little kid, but lately a little doubt has been creeping into my head, and I've lost a little faith after seeing some youtube videos in this thread. It's made me re-think about my faith in Jesus Christ. I've read over a lot of threads in this section of the forum and don't recall seeing a question like this posed, so I'll ask.
What if the Bible and other "holy" books are all lies formulated by God to test a persons mental thinking? In other words, God wanted to see who is the people who are smart enough to use logic and if they do not believe in any religion that they'll go to heaven.
Gah, I feel like I'm not making a lick of sense, but my question is simple. What if everything is reversed? That believers go to Hell and non-believers go to Heaven?
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Post by unicycletim on Oct 1, 2010 4:50:59 GMT -5
Hmmm.
I suppose I have had similar thought in the past too.
Reading books like The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, where he looks at the historical evidence as to who Christ is helped me understand that there are some unmistakable signs pointing towards God, if you really want to acknowledge him.
Recently I read a couple of books by Phillip Yancey, Where is God when it hurts? and Disappointment with God and they really helped establish in my mind who God is and why he operates the way he does.
I don't know if this is of any help at all, whether it's the type of answer you're after or not.
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Post by pray7for7give7ness on Oct 1, 2010 16:22:58 GMT -5
Well I'll have to ask my mom for her credit card, hopefully she doesn't hit me for asking.
Anyone else care to chime in? I would like some answers from as many of you guys as possible.
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Post by tohellwithhades on Oct 1, 2010 16:25:35 GMT -5
Keep strong in your faith, my friend, the days are going to get darker and being a real Christian is going to become harder. [Pointing to myself as well] Also, keep studying the Word so the Truth remains clear in your mind.
The devil is going to use every insidious little tool he has these days to destroy your faith...esp. planting doubt about the saving blood of Christ.
I highly recommend checking out The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis.
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Post by pray7for7give7ness on Oct 1, 2010 16:45:37 GMT -5
It's just people have told me there is no evidence either way when I asked them today.
There is no evidence that people who believe in Bible go to heaven or that people who believe in the Bible go to hell. They said that God says he's perfect in the Bible but contradicts himself many times, so that means he can't be perfect using the human logic he created.
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Post by tohellwithhades on Oct 2, 2010 11:07:43 GMT -5
Can you state their sources as to where God contradicts himself in the Bible?
I believe there are certain things that God allows as evidence, which is quite a lot, while other things are kept hidden from human understanding (otherwise, what's the point of having faith?). The biggest problem lies in finite beings trying to completely discern the logic of an infinite being. There are a lot of things that don't make sense to us. But just because they don't, it's rather foolish to then assume that God must lie, or even on the extreme, that He not exist.
In my opinion, people "reasoning" against God using the "no evidence" argument in regards to the existence of heaven and hell are laughable. Of course there is no evidence here; none of us are dead.
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Post by Patrick on Oct 2, 2010 18:17:52 GMT -5
Gah, I feel like I'm not making a lick of sense, but my question is simple. What if everything is reversed? That believers go to Hell and non-believers go to Heaven? That cannot be the case unless we completely misunderstand God, and He IS in fact evil. Let me explain: the Bible calls for people to do good (i.e. feed the poor, care for the widow and the orphan, not to lie, not to steal, not to cheat, not to murder, to honor your parents, to love your neighbor as yourself, etc.). Many will argue this, but the Bible invented these ideas. In ancient times, basic human decency was what set Israel apart from most of their neighboring countries who practiced child sacrifice, worshiped idols, and were generally ruthless. The values taught in the Bible were what made Israel a more decent civilization. It wouldn't make sense then that God would send people to Hell for believing in the document that invented the ideas of human decency. If He did do that, God would be evil, and it would still be better to follow the Bible anyway despite the consequences. |
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Post by tohellwithhades on Oct 7, 2010 17:58:43 GMT -5
Gah, I feel like I'm not making a lick of sense, but my question is simple. What if everything is reversed? That believers go to Hell and non-believers go to Heaven? That cannot be the case unless we completely misunderstand God, and He IS in fact evil. Let me explain: the Bible calls for people to do good (i.e. feed the poor, care for the widow and the orphan, not to lie, not to steal, not to cheat, not to murder, to honor your parents, to love your neighbor as yourself, etc.). Many will argue this, but the Bible invented these ideas. In ancient times, basic human decency was what set Israel apart from most of their neighboring countries who practiced child sacrifice, worshiped idols, and were generally ruthless. The values taught in the Bible were what made Israel a more decent civilization. It wouldn't make sense then that God would send people to Hell for believing in the document that invented the ideas of human decency. If He did do that, God would be evil, and it would still be better to follow the Bible anyway despite the consequences. Well said. It's just people have told me there is no evidence either way when I asked them today. There is no evidence that people who believe in Bible go to heaven or that people who believe in the Bible go to hell. They said that God says he's perfect in the Bible but contradicts himself many times, so that means he can't be perfect using the human logic he created. Also, here is something to think about (it struck me after I responded last time): I believe the Bible is inspired by God through the Holy Spirit; and it's alive. We Christians can understand and learn to understand it further because the Holy Spirit is living inside us. It's what helps us discern the text. Now, when people who are not Christian--who don't have the Holy Spirit living in them--try to understand the depth of the Bible, it's foolishness to them. It's not that they don't understand it, it's that they can't (so they criticize it). They are spiritually dead. Only when God opens their hearts and minds, will they begin to understand what the living text means and what it really says about who God is. So given that perspective, when your friends/acquaintances try to talk you out of your faith, don't listen to them because they really don't know. You do, however. |
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Post by pray7for7give7ness on Oct 8, 2010 20:30:44 GMT -5
tohellwithhades: they said that God kills people even though humans are suppose to have free-will, so he can't be perfect if he can't even follow his own laws. You say that there is no evidence of heaven and hell because we're not dead yet, that doesn't answer my question that what if there is a heaven and a hell and heaven is for people who are non-believers.
Patrick: By that definition God is evil because he has killed way more people than satan in the Bible, God is a jerk in the Old Testament and I can't believe I never really examined that part of the Bible before. I can't believe God would do such things.
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Post by tohellwithhades on Oct 9, 2010 23:57:30 GMT -5
tohellwithhades: they said that God kills people even though humans are suppose to have free-will, so he can't be perfect if he can't even follow his own laws. You say that there is no evidence of heaven and hell because we're not dead yet, that doesn't answer my question that what if there is a heaven and a hell and heaven is for people who are non-believers. Patrick: By that definition God is evil because he has killed way more people than satan in the Bible, God is a jerk in the Old Testament and I can't believe I never really examined that part of the Bible before. I can't believe God would do such things. How can heaven be for non-believers, when the Bible directly states that it isn't? Why would God tell people through His Word that only those who believe in His son would enter heaven and those who don't will enter hell, then in the end condemn those who chose to believe? That makes absolutely no sense. People do have free will and God has taken lives, but that doesn't nullify God's system of 'free will' nor does it make Him imperfect. Free will is the choice to do what we will on this earth--which we do--and the choice to follow God or not. The "harsh" chronicles of God show us his ultimate authority, judgement, consequence, etc., even if we don't completely understand. Are we expected, as a finite creation, to fully understand an infinite Creator? No. And this is where faith comes into play. |
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Post by Patrick on Oct 10, 2010 18:32:14 GMT -5
Patrick: By that definition God is evil because he has killed way more people than satan in the Bible, God is a jerk in the Old Testament and I can't believe I never really examined that part of the Bible before. I can't believe God would do such things. Well, if you believe in God as the Bible says He is, you would recognize that He is God and we are only people. There are some things in the Old Testament that disgust me, and even many of Jesus' teachings make me nauseous, but for the most part, God clearly does good throughout the Bible and He defends those who stand for decency. A few things that God has done throughout the Bible seem wrong to me as well, but I recognize that I do not fully understand the situations, and I believe the Lord had good reason for doing what He did. If you believe in God, He IS that same God who taught "Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, etc." It is the same God who poured out his wrath against evil people, and rewarded those who did what was right. This God taught mankind justice and goodness, and in order to do that, He needed to teach some hard lessons, especially at the outset. To me, about 80% of the Bible helps me make sense of life, and teaches me how to do what is right, but there's the rest of it that leaves me perplexed. The 80% is plenty of reason for me to have faith in a good God! |
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Post by Scott on Oct 11, 2010 6:47:31 GMT -5
This is why we have to understand the limitations of reason.
The soul is the source of understanding and experience of God, not the mind.
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Post by tohellwithhades on Oct 11, 2010 11:53:42 GMT -5
This is why we have to understand the limitations of reason. The soul is the source of understanding and experience of God, not the mind. Finite beings trying to wrap our minds around an infinite God. |
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Post by Patrick on Oct 11, 2010 19:19:17 GMT -5
This is why we have to understand the limitations of reason. The soul is the source of understanding and experience of God, not the mind. But there is plenty of logical, and very practical reason to believe too. It's not all about the soul, but it's very much about morality, values, and justice. |
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Post by pray7for7give7ness on Oct 12, 2010 21:17:16 GMT -5
Reading this thread has not helped me at all in recovering my faith  My friend's have definitely had better arguments, I have tuned them out for so long, but now I just realize that they're are right. They said whats the point of worshipping a God that we can't fully understand? And it makes sense, they said we only have human logic to make choices. Every time we chill and talk about this stuff they are convincing and not hostile with me, I thought Athiests were jerks but my friends have been really friendly about talking with me. It's making me re-think a lot of misconceptions I've had, being naive I guess. I do have a lot to learn. |
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