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Post by amoyensis on Oct 29, 2005 0:02:14 GMT -5
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
But even if we never have a non-Christian on these forums, it's not right to disrespect people. In fact, it may be worse to disrespect people who aren't here, because that's cowardly.
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Post by amoyensis on Oct 29, 2005 0:03:53 GMT -5
um...dude...nobody is making a big deal about it but you....just...chill..everyone was just telling everyone else what they thought of it...no need to blow it out of poportion Actually, I think that Hubbard's career isn't a big deal at all, and that's I why I pointed out the fact that other people think it is. A lot of previous posts have said 'How can you believe in something created by a sci-fi writer?' or something to that effect. I don't think someone's beliefs should be discredited based on their career as an author.
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Post by In Christ, the metalhead on Oct 29, 2005 13:13:23 GMT -5
Yeah, that's pretty much it. But even if we never have a non-Christian on these forums, it's not right to disrespect people. In fact, it may be worse to disrespect people who aren't here, because that's cowardly. Yeah, as Children of God, we want to love on people. Even if someone is not a follower of Christ, people in general like to be loved and respected, not cast aside of disrepected.
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Post by ezekiel on Oct 30, 2005 23:04:25 GMT -5
just keep on praying for them!!i had one guy out in front of k-mart.with all his dianetics books laid out on an ironing board.he asked me if i like to read and i replied "yes,my bible is great reading!"
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Post by amoyensis on Oct 30, 2005 23:34:44 GMT -5
I definitely agree, I think we should always be praying earnestly.
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Post by John on Oct 31, 2005 8:56:24 GMT -5
just keep on praying for them!!i had one guy out in front of k-mart.with all his dianetics books laid out on an ironing board.he asked me if i like to read and i replied "yes,my bible is great reading!" Nice.
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Post by Samhain on Oct 31, 2005 23:04:02 GMT -5
um...dude...nobody is making a big deal about it but you....just...chill..everyone was just telling everyone else what they thought of it...no need to blow it out of poportion Actually, I think that Hubbard's career isn't a big deal at all, and that's I why I pointed out the fact that other people think it is. A lot of previous posts have said 'How can you believe in something created by a sci-fi writer?' or something to that effect. I don't think someone's beliefs should be discredited based on their career as an author. Honestly, I didn't mean "how can you believe in something created by a sci-fi writer" in an insulting way, but rather I was giving some information about the man who made up a religion. Personally I find it hard to believe in something made up by a fiction writer. How do we know that he really believes in what he teaches, how do we know that he isn't just making up another story, that he might be demented and think that reality is another book he can write(this is all hypothetical, I'm not saying he is actually demented) If he were a renowned scientist then scientology could be better supported. He is known for writing fiction so this religion that he introduced can be better discredited. We should declare the fallacies of modern man as the evils that they are, but we should remain respectful of those who are decieved. Science fiction writers, no matter how intelligent they really are, write fiction. For instance, Isaac Asimov had a brilliant scientific mind, but instead of applying his ideas about robotics and the like to real life, he created fake worlds where he could easily overcome the restrictions of reality, he accomplished nothing, and squandered his scientific understanding on creating entertainment. Though his ideas may influence someone else to challenge the restrictions of modern science, he was just a fool. That is not a name that should be used lightly, but it is a name rightfully given. I realize I've gone on to long, and I will probably be flamed horribly for what I've said, but I still stand by my statement. I ask you to point out any flaws in what I've said so that I may correct them or give more clarification.
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Post by amoyensis on Nov 1, 2005 1:48:01 GMT -5
What you're saying is that somebody is incapable of transcending their career. Since Hubbard wrote fiction, then everything he creates must therefore be fiction. I just don't think that's logical. It's like saying that someone who writes children's books can't create war documentaries (see Dr Seuss). And while I do believe that Scientology is false, I don't believe that it was created to be fiction.
I mean, Jesus started our faith off of no education. He was not an active philosopher of his time, he was not a teacher by profession; he was a carpenter, and he developed a great philosophy and great teachings out of divinity / divine inspiration.
Do I think Hubbard was divinely inspired? Absolutely not. Do I think Scientology has credibility? No. But is it logically flawed to base a person's credibility off a career as an author? Yeah, I think so.
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Post by Samhain on Nov 1, 2005 20:17:21 GMT -5
Yes, actually that is true. But here's another thing that just came to mind, you mentioned how Jesus was not none as a philosopher, or teacher, that He really had no education. But there is another source that verifies what He taught, God told us that Jesus is His son, He promised us a saviour. The Christian religion is descended from Judaism. So I ask this, what supports Scientology, or any other religion like Budhism, Islam, Paganism, Wicca. Mormans and Jehovah's Witnesses don't even have an outside source verify there beliefs. I admit that I have no argument hold up what I've said about Hubbard being an author, well on second thought I just thought of this. You mentioned Dr. Seuss writing war documantaries, you can't use that as a flawless argument against what I've said. We know for a fact that those wars did occur, there is evidence of that such as, people who experienced these wars, media documentation, and countless books. What supports Scientology? These poeple that believe scientology are simply taking the word of a man. Though Jesus was a man, He was the son of God, and there is tons of evidence to support that.
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Post by amoyensis on Nov 1, 2005 22:27:44 GMT -5
As I've said before, I'm not supporting Scientology. It's a misled faith with no basis. By the same token, though, should a faith be determined by its history? What inspired Judaism? We believe that it was divinely inspired as a predecessor for what we call Christianity, but from a secular perspective they both have the same basis as Islam or Wicca. By the way, Buddhism is more commonly practised as a philosophy rather than a religion.
Anyway, I'm simply saying that one's career should not affect our perceptions of that person. My original point regarding our respect for others still stands.
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Post by Laura on Nov 1, 2005 22:38:59 GMT -5
I believe
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Post by Samhain on Nov 1, 2005 23:17:25 GMT -5
Here's is an extreme example, say a serial killer, someone who kills as much as he breathes, were to introduce a religion to the world, I do realize that serial killer isn't a career, so here is a better example, say, a hitman, or a thief, or a drug lord(they all do these things for a living, so in a sense it is a career), suppose they were to introduce a new religion or philosophy to the world, you certainly would take into account their career while you consider their new religion, when you make your opinions. Why should it be any different for a fiction writer, a scientist, a clergy man, a lumber jack, a janitor, whatever they might do. As for Judaism's origins, that's when you go past theology, that's when you consider historical, scientific evidence, you have to start comparing it to other things, things that have clear distinct evidence. You could even compare Judaism to other religions, find all the similarities between them, and then look at there origins, when they started, then you go back to historical evidence and find out which one started first. So you know, religion is a philosophy. What exactly are we achieving anyway, this is nothing but an argument. In an argument you must present facts to support your opinion. So right now, I would like to ask anyone else who reads this to state who they think has given the most evidence to support their opinion. I'm not doing this to spite you, or to prove you wrong, I'm just curious as to what everyone else thinks about this argument. Is it just a bunch of hot air, or does it have some kind of relevance to anything. Let's try and be mature, so this doesn't just boil down to a pissing contest.
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Post by amoyensis on Nov 2, 2005 0:56:30 GMT -5
The basis for my idea of respecting others comes from Matthes 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27, which all talk about the two fundamental laws of the faith Jesus was trying to create. There's also 1 Corinthians 13.
As far as the career discussion is concerned, it's less about evidence and more about reasoning. Now, you give the example of a hitman or a drug dealer or a thief. I would say that those people are intrinsically incapable of separating their careers from the rest of their lives due to the criminal nature of the activities of their career; the fact that they are breaking the law means that their daily non-career lives are unequivocally impacted by their source of income. On the other hand, one who is an author or a carpenter is capable of having an entirely separate part of his life dedicated to the development of spiritual/philosophical ideals. Hence, I don't believe that it is logical to state that one who initially makes his career as an author of fiction is inherently discredited by that fact, in the same way that one who is a criminal is not prohibited from changing his lifestyle (see John Newton).
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Post by Solid on Nov 2, 2005 1:32:01 GMT -5
I'm guessing you just kinda jumped in here and said that just to sound like you're interested? Almost worked...anyways, I thought of something humorous while reading this. Someone (forgot who) said on here about Scientology being a sci-fi story because the guy who created the idea was an author....then I wondered if people would think of the Bible as a book on how to build a wooden table because Jesus was a carpenter. Just a thought...now go ahead and get back on subject.
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Post by Samhain on Nov 2, 2005 22:21:08 GMT -5
Actually you kind of got it a little mixed up. What I was saying was hypothetical. Here's one thing, everyone is influenced by there career in some way in their lives. Though someone can change their life, Hubbard hasn't really, as far as I know he still is an author. I find a persons career relevant, what you choose to do for a living says alot about your character. Here's and idea, Hubbard writes books as a form of entertainment, which means that he enjoys making people happy, but at some point his books began to sell well, so, maybe he continued writing his books to make money, lots of money, he could have been writing his books for the sole purpose of making money, then that ultimately means he's greedy. Now lets look at scientology, I don't know everything about this philosophy, but I do know that it has something to do with making lots of money. So if you look at it, and you don't even have to look hard, he likes being rich so much that he created a religion about it, and he managed to throw some of his science fiction in there too. Scientology involves aliens, as I've been told. Just like the Pharisees, Hubbard tries to justify his greed with religion. Don't you see what I've been saying now? Jesus was a carpenter, which means He built things for people, during His life He "built" a way of thinking, a model for our lives, and when He returned to Heaven, He went to prepare a place for us. Jesus Christ "built" so many things for us, that's why He was a carpenter before. I am an artist, and I'm "drawing a picture" for you. As for the scripture about respecting people, yes I do think it is appropriate to be respectful of all people, that we should love the sinner but hate the sin. We should also denounce other religions and philosophies, after all Jesus did, he spent alot of His time tearing down other religions. Also, as Christians we shouldn't have strife and divisions between us. So what's the point to this argument, I'm willing to end this if you are, but so you know, I'm stubborn and won't back down, I have a knack for getting the last word, and trust me, I'm not really that proud of that fact, fighting is pointless, and I hate to being insipid. I admit, I'm an asinine jerk, so how about we bury the hatchet before this gets to out of control.
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