Predestination?

[tetelestai]

Hi, I saw this discussion thought I'd throw my two cents in for what it's worth. Hope it helps.
predestination is certainly biblical, Rom 8:29, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11. Election is also biblical. Election refers to God choosing people whereas predestination refers to what God chooses to do with his chosen people. So you were chosen(elected) from before the foundation of the world, to be predistined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

the Bible teaches predestination and election, the difficulty lies in the translation and there are mainly two schools of thought.

1. God is looking down a time line, and realizes the choices people will make for him or against him, and therefore elects based on their forseeable faith or lack of faith. This camp believes man has the inate ability to choose God from his own strength, and faith preceeds regeneration.

2. God chooses certain people out of the greater number that he passes over, and the only reason they choose him is because he chose them first. This camp believes it is impossible for man to choose God without first being chosen by God. In this case regeneration proceeds faith.

That's basically it in a nutshell. I'm a five point Calvinist (camp 2) if anybody has any questions or comments I would love to engage in a discussion, minus name calling and the what not that usually follows. Send me an email let's talk, I LOVE theology, it's fun.

[amoyensis]

metalman5000 said:

He didn't destroy the previous representations sent by God. He abolished the man-made laws that the Pharisees and other religious sects had made for themselves.

There was God's law (as given in the Torah). Israel followed it for while, but then some of them started thinking "Hey, if we make laws that 'cover' God's Laws, we'll be even holier!" And so, the extras laws for form. I think there was a law for every letter in the 10 commandments. This is called Jewish Tradition or Jewish Oral Law.

Jesus did not destroy the Law. He fulfilled the ceremonial duties of a sacrifice, freed us from that enslavement to sin, and all of that; but the moral law still stands. We are still to honor our father and mother. We are still to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. We are still not to murder, etc etc.

How do you explain him working on the Sabbath repeatedly?

I agree that Jesus fulfilled the law (often by outright rebellion), but by doing so he also drastically change the way we meet with God. As you said, there's no more ceremonial sacrifice; isn't this a case of our interaction with God changing?
And what about Matthew 5, in which Jesus says, over and over, 'you have heard ____, but I tell you _____'? Isn't this another case of our interaction with God changing?

[koihoshi]

samhain said:

God does not changes, his actions and ideas do not change. We as humans change, we interpret things differantly. Let me put it this way, if man were to be walking into a strong east wind and then turned around and said "now the wind is to my back" he would be wrong because the wind didn't change, he did. Before he was facing the wind and when he turned around his back was to the wind. You see?
As for predestination, predestination is God's will for our lives, but we have to except it and submit ourselves too it. He sets a path of possibilities for our lives, and we must make decisions, with His help, about how we follow that path. God does not interfere with free will, that is against his moral nature, it's not possible for Him, morally. Physically, yes He can do anything, but morally He limits Himself. He only gives us suggestions, for lack of a better word, as how to live our lives, He does not force us.

This is great!

Think of it this way.

Imagine a maze, there are a million different paths, but only 2 ways out, one goes to the fiery pits of hell, the other comes to heaven. The choices in the maze are good and some are bad, it's an obvious decision that if you choose the good paths that you are heading on a narrow yet difficult path to get there but it gets there. The other path may be difficult as well but goes to the fiery pits of hell. Either way... the paths are there, the paths have chocies, but they are STILL the same PATHS. In the beginning, YOU have the choice to make and YOU choose your path, the end, the results are one or the other but one in the same. I Hope that makes sense in my aspect of how I see it. In other words, the paths are there but it's OUR choice to go where we want to. He only makes the patch and points us in the right direction in hope that we are good people and follow what is right and just.