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Post by brandon on Oct 27, 2005 9:49:15 GMT -5
I'm mad confused. Is it biblical? And how does that work out with free-will?
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Post by In Christ, the metalhead on Oct 27, 2005 17:33:22 GMT -5
Yes, it is biblical. i'm not sure where all the verses are at, But it basically doesn't affect Followers of Christ because, its not like the Puritan's belief in where there is an elite class, that only they make it to heaven. what this means, is that we were chosen by God to follow him, for the rest of our days... It's hard to comprehend, because you could talk about how, well, are non-believers gonna be saved? well, yes, and no. Yes, because if you share the word with them, there is a possibility, but what if they aren't witnessed to, or don't know God? I'm not sure if I'm making much sense, but i hope that answers you question, lol. if i come across a predestination verse, i'll post it.
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Post by amoyensis on Oct 27, 2005 17:55:48 GMT -5
It's a really tough question, and I think it reflects a lot about the nature of God.
Predestination essentially states that our lives (or a part of our lives) has been predetermined by the will of God, before the beginning of the universe. Free-will essentially states that we are free to choose what we want to do in our lives.
The way I reconcile them is this: God exists outside of the bounds of time. God is in a perpetual state of existence, unchanged by the events that occur within physical and universal boundaries. God may change the way he interacts with the world (Old Testament to New Testament, for example), but he is himself unchanging. Therefore, if God has accepted you into his kingdom in 'the future', from the perspective of God you are already in his kingdom, even though you aren't yet there yourself. Does that make sense?
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Post by In Christ, the metalhead on Oct 28, 2005 13:34:25 GMT -5
It's a really tough question, and I think it reflects a lot about the nature of God. Predestination essentially states that our lives (or a part of our lives) has been predetermined by the will of God, before the beginning of the universe. Free-will essentially states that we are free to choose what we want to do in our lives. The way I reconcile them is this: God exists outside of the bounds of time. God is in a perpetual state of existence, unchanged by the events that occur within physical and universal boundaries. God may change the way he interacts with the world (Old Testament to New Testament, for example), but he is himself unchanging. Therefore, if God has accepted you into his kingdom in 'the future', from the perspective of God you are already in his kingdom, even though you aren't yet there yourself. Does that make sense? Yeah dude, that totally makes sense. i didn't know how to put that into words. it's hard to like grasp that and fully understand it; but yeah, what you said makes total sense.
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Post by Samhain on Oct 31, 2005 22:31:09 GMT -5
God does not changes, his actions and ideas do not change. We as humans change, we interpret things differantly. Let me put it this way, if man were to be walking into a strong east wind and then turned around and said "now the wind is to my back" he would be wrong because the wind didn't change, he did. Before he was facing the wind and when he turned around his back was to the wind. You see? As for predestination, predestination is God's will for our lives, but we have to except it and submit ourselves too it. He sets a path of possibilities for our lives, and we must make decisions, with His help, about how we follow that path. God does not interfere with free will, that is against his moral nature, it's not possible for Him, morally. Physically, yes He can do anything, but morally He limits Himself. He only gives us suggestions, for lack of a better word, as how to live our lives, He does not force us.
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Post by Solid on Oct 31, 2005 23:54:45 GMT -5
God does not changes, his actions and ideas do not change. We as humans change, we interpret things differantly. Let me put it this way, if man were to be walking into a strong east wind and then turned around and said "now the wind is to my back" he would be wrong because the wind didn't change, he did. Before he was facing the wind and when he turned around his back was to the wind. You see? As for predestination, predestination is God's will for our lives, but we have to except it and submit ourselves too it. He sets a path of possibilities for our lives, and we must make decisions, with His help, about how we follow that path. God does not interfere with free will, that is against his moral nature, it's not possible for Him, morally. Physically, yes He can do anything, but morally He limits Himself. He only gives us suggestions, for lack of a better word, as how to live our lives, He does not force us. Great illustration there.
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Post by amoyensis on Nov 1, 2005 1:52:31 GMT -5
God does not changes, his actions and ideas do not change. I think God's ideas change. Look at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah: Abraham argues God down from 50 righteous men to 10. Or was God just playing games with Abraham?
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Post by brandon on Nov 1, 2005 13:35:27 GMT -5
God does not changes, his actions and ideas do not change. We as humans change, we interpret things differantly. Let me put it this way, if man were to be walking into a strong east wind and then turned around and said "now the wind is to my back" he would be wrong because the wind didn't change, he did. Before he was facing the wind and when he turned around his back was to the wind. You see? As for predestination, predestination is God's will for our lives, but we have to except it and submit ourselves too it. He sets a path of possibilities for our lives, and we must make decisions, with His help, about how we follow that path. God does not interfere with free will, that is against his moral nature, it's not possible for Him, morally. Physically, yes He can do anything, but morally He limits Himself. He only gives us suggestions, for lack of a better word, as how to live our lives, He does not force us. Thanks!
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Post by brandon on Nov 1, 2005 13:35:55 GMT -5
Oh and I think it's Romans 8:29 or something.
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Post by Samhain on Nov 1, 2005 22:55:30 GMT -5
God does not changes, his actions and ideas do not change. I think God's ideas change. Look at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah: Abraham argues God down from 50 righteous men to 10. Or was God just playing games with Abraham? I got that illustration from a Bible study that was written by someone with most likely a better theological understanding. Here's something else he mentioned. In the book of Jonah God intended to destroy the city of Ninevah which was an immoral place, but He sent Jonah to preach to them, He was willing to spare the city. You know the story, so I'll cut to the chase, God's intentions toward the city of Ninevah, and all sin didn't change, but He spared the city because they repented. The people of the Ninevah changed, they were no longer sinful, so God had no reason to destroy the city. Do you understand what I'm saying. I can't remember the story of Sodom and Gomorrah all that well so I can't explain it very well, but I'll be back with an explanation.
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Post by amoyensis on Nov 2, 2005 0:59:47 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd like to hear what you have to say.
Now, what about something else like the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant? God's character does not change, but certainly his interaction with humanity did (drastically). I mean, Jesus spent so much of his life tearing down the previous ideas of religion as set forth by none other than Abba God.
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Post by Samhain on Nov 2, 2005 21:54:40 GMT -5
There was something about that in the book I was reading, I just can't remember that right now. It was a good explanation. Anyway, it should be in this really good book called Know What You Believe. I highly recommend it, and I've only read two chapters of it.
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Post by Solid on Nov 8, 2005 23:11:45 GMT -5
He fulfilled them.
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Post by amoyensis on Nov 9, 2005 13:17:03 GMT -5
He fulfilled them and then destroyed their previous representations (i.e. the temple being split in half, using sacred jars for his first miracle, doing lots of work on the Sabbath day, and so forth).
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Post by Samhain on Nov 9, 2005 22:16:16 GMT -5
AMEN!
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