Death Penalty...

[jontreg]

Its funny like 4 days ago we had a debate on this topic in class. I won the debate and I was with death penalty.

[eyeofsauron]

Interesting discussion. I have these comments:

1. The death penalty is Biblical. Yes - we are under a new covenant, but the bottom line is God deemed certain crimes committed to be worthy of death. Most certainly, the scripture talking about an eye for an eye - we should not take that literally. It means we should apply punishment APPROPRIATE to the criminal action.

2. We have our governments put in place over us, and they are given the ability to decide these matters. Here, in the US, which is based on the the 10 commandments among other Biblical principles, the death penalty is an option.

3. To equate pro-life to mean that one MUST be against abortion, war, and the DP is ludicrous - and inconsistent. There are huge differences in each, the obvious difference is the innocence of the "victim". Short reasons: Abortion is the destruction of innocent life, guilty of nothing more than being the outcome of two people's decisions. War is also Biblical, and there are times that it is the only solution. Sure, the loss of life is tragic, but sometimes you must fight. As someone mentioned, should we have stayed out of Germany's way? Of course NOT! To stand aside during that would have been implicit approval of the methods and outcomes - and then explicit approval as we would be made to bow before that pathetic excuse for a human being. Lastly, the DP. Here, a person convicted of a crime deemed as appropriately punishable by the DP has had due process - a VERY important point. Many times, there are also appeals, etc. However, the bottom line is that this punishment IS a deterrent - maybe not to other criminals (though it could be if consistently and appropriately used and applied), but to the person being punished. Tell me ONE person who after being put to death was able to murder, rape, etc. again. Christ, of course, does not count, and the reasons should be obvious.

I am not saying you cannot be pro-life and not be against war (or a specific war) and the DP. I believe that abortion is most obviously wrong, goes against all the Bible teaches, and is just horrific in itself. The opinions about specific wars vary and the reasons for a war may mean that it may not be the correct course of action.

Notice what I am NOT saying: that the death penalty should be arbitrarily and inconsistently applied. As the law states (as allowed over us by God), there are specific instances that allow for the death penalty.

And yes, I did approve of the execution of that Crip gang leader earlier this week. His crimes were tried, he was found guilty, those crimes deemed punishable by death, and death was eventually administered. I grant that he appeared to turn his life around (only God can know fir sure), even attempting to turn kids from gangs. However, he had to pay for his crimes against humanity, and did.

Notice that in all of our lives, how we all have to pay for mistakes we make - or choices we may deliberately act upon? For example, in my life, I have totaled my parents car many years ago based on a mistake. I paid for that mistake for years. Other choices have consequences that lasted much less time than that - for others, the consequences may be a lifetime.

I think the bottom line for me is this:

If God Himself allows us to suffer the consequences of our actions and may even punish us Himself at time, even after our salvation, then why should we ignore His example? Are we not made in His image? Does that not mean we must attempt to be JUST in our dealings with each other, as He is just with us?

Just because we do not necessarily share the same opinions here does not mean I do not value someone. Anyone who agrees with me on the fundamentals of salvation, God, Christ, etc. are always my brothers and sisters in Christ. The rest is not salvation-specific, and as such, we can agree to disagree. And lets do that.

[deadlock]

Good points! Of course, Amoyensis makes some good points in his arguments against it. I tend to agree more with what you say, but this thread has been very engaging and thought-provoking!

[shredmetal777]

I know God will forgive the most vile man,but I don't know for sure whether the death penalty is wrong or not ,I am pro-life(Against abortion)because that is taking an innocent babies life.If somebody commits a terrible crime then the death penalty may be just punishment,I just know I wouldn't want to be a judge and decide when to take a persons life or not. I think we should die when the good Lord takes us. Is the death penalty biblically wrong? If so then I'm against it, if not,then I'm not sure.

[zegidroph]

I know this topic is old, but, bear with me.

There is one thing I see missing in this arguement, and that is DIRECT biblical defense. There are mentions, yes, but the verses were never spoken. Allow me to do so:

22Now suppose two people are fighting, and in the process, they hurt a pregnant woman so her child is born prematurely. If no further harm results, then the person responsible must pay damages in the amount the woman's husband demands and the judges approve. 23But if any harm results, then the offender must be punished according to the injury. If the result is death, the offender must be executed. 24If an eye is injured, injure the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it. Similarly, the payment must be hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21:22-25 NLT

It says it plain and simple. Here's another relevent one:

1Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have placed in power by God. 2So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.

Romans 13:1-2 NLT

Sorry they were so long but I have a thing with including the context of verses. Not to mention they help in the arguement in this debate.

P.S. Death Adder and eyeofsauron, you rock.

[amoyensis]

Hey man, I have no problem with people living by Exodus, but you'll have to be consistent about it.

For myself, I think Jesus spoke very plainly against 'eye for an eye'.

[shredmetal777]

How did Jesus speak against it if it's in the Bible? Are you meaning because it's in the old testament?

[amoyensis]

Read the Sermon on the Mount. It's in Matthew 5. He says a bunch of things where he goes, 'You have heard it said that ______' (and he'll quote an Old Testament verse), 'but I tell you that _________' (and he'll establish a new framework).

[shredmetal777]

Alright,I believe every word of the Bible,I'll read that,I've been reading a 60 days with Paul thing,it's awesome! So was Jesus telling things that had changed since the old testament?

[amoyensis]

That's what it seems, yeah.

[zegidroph]

amoyensis said:

Read the Sermon on the Mount. It's in Matthew 5. He says a bunch of things where he goes, 'You have heard it said that ______' (and he'll quote an Old Testament verse), 'but I tell you that _________' (and he'll establish a new framework).

*cracks his neck*

OK, once again, we are missing direct quoting and are missing the context.

21 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not murder. If you commit murder you are subject to judgment." 22 But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgement! If you call someone and idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high counicl. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.
Matthew 5:21-22 NLT

The entire passage was talking about the ANGER of the situation. Not law or judgement or consiquences of breaking those laws. Even the title of the parable is called "Teaching about Anger", not "Teaching New Naw". Never forget the context of what you read.

P.S. I'm kind of in danger of being brought before the high council, I do admit.

[zegidroph]

However, the 3 verses before are:

17 Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. 18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disapper, even the smallest detail of Godd's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them wioll be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

So, in fact, Jesus speaks directly against changing the old laws and commandments in the passage.

If you disagree, please tell me and explain. This is the way I grow.

[shredmetal777]

Matthew 5 38-40
38."You have heard that it was said,An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39.But I tell you not to resist an evil person.But whoever slaps you on your right cheek,turn the other to him also.

Another thing are we as Christians still under the law? I've been taught we are now under grace.

And there is a verse in Hebrews that says something like those who willfully sin against God after knowing better,there no longer remains sacrifice for sin. But since Jesus died on the cross for our sins can't our sins be forgiven even when we turn and willfully sin?

[amoyensis]

zegidroph said:

However, the 3 verses before are:

17 Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. 18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disapper, even the smallest detail of Godd's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them wioll be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

So, in fact, Jesus speaks directly against changing the old laws and commandments in the passage.

If you disagree, please tell me and explain. This is the way I grow.

Right, if he fulfilled them then we are not bound by them anymore. Jesus didn't contradict the OT laws, but if he fulfilled them, then what need is there for us to abide by them? If we're still under OT law then shouldn't we also be worried about ceremonial cleanliness, being kosher, etc.?

[Solid]

If ya'll are saying what I think you are, let me quote something from the book of Romans, I believe:
"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!"