deadlock
Junior Member
"Onward Christian soldiers moshing as to war!"
Posts: 92
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Post by deadlock on Dec 8, 2005 15:47:23 GMT -5
This has been in the news recently and I would just like to see what some of you think. The original founder of the Crips gang is about to be executed unless he is saved by the Governor. A lot of people are supporting him because ever since he has been in prison he has worked hard to turn kids against a life in gangs, and they say he has been rehabilitated. What do you think, can someone be totally rehabilitated, and even if they could, would that be reason enough to spare them the death penalty? Also, is the death penalty right?
Here are my thoughts: I believe that a person CAN be rehabilited with God's help. However, it is very difficult to judge whether a person has truly repented for what they did. There are a lot of people in churches, even, who talk a good game but hide secret sins. Look at the BTK killer, he was very active in his church. If a person is very obviously sincere in their repentance, though, is that enough for them to be saved from execution? I don't know. I have mixed feelings. As for the death penalty itself, I used to be hardcore about supporting the death penalty. Lately, though, I am starting to think that only in the most extreme cases would it be right. I am definitely not becoming soft, but I think that it's God's decision, not ours as to when a man or woman should die.
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Death Adder
Junior Member
The Wizard of the Code
Posts: 65
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Post by Death Adder on Dec 8, 2005 17:44:01 GMT -5
I'll bite, always being the one to stick my finger in a hornet's nest...
I fully support the death penalty. It is a maximum punishment for a maximum crime. A punishment should not be less severe just because one is sorry. Of course a caught person will be sorry (sorry they got caught). A person who has reformed has still committed the crime in the first place. A person has to accept the punishment for the crime they committed whether they are reformed or not. If I steal a million dollars from a charity and blow it on screwing hookers and then snort the rest of the money up my nose in cocaine should I be punished? I would hope so. Would it make it all better if I said I was sorry? Would it make it alright if I agreed to do a little community service afterward? My point is that a crime is a crime and there is an appropriate punishment for each crime. That punishment should not change. If you are sorry about it and try to change the course of other peoples lives then great. Your reward is in Heaven not here.
I don't think God decides when a given person should die. Nature does that. You might be able to live to 100 but if you are 20 and you step out in front of a bus you just might die. God merely gives us the life in the first place. How that life goes is up to us and fate. Maybe sometimes God intervenes and prevents death (sure seems like that's happened to me before!) but I don't think he's got a definate plan to take any of us from this Earth. Otherwise getting cancer would be a great time to curse God. That would be an excellent time to ask 'Why did you plan for me to die so soon!?!?!?!'
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Post by amoyensis on Dec 8, 2005 21:56:23 GMT -5
I am completely against the death penalty. For one, I believe that Christianity teaches total redemption, not partial. If scriptures tell us to forgive others as God forgave us, then how can we rightfully say 'OK, we forgive you... but you're still getting the lethal injection'?
I also believe that when Jesus was confronted with the woman who had committed adultery, and he asked the Pharisees and the crowd to throw stones at her if they were sinless, I think that was an indication of how our attitude should be to others.
Unrelated, but Death Adder, how can free choice and fate coexist? And where does fate come from if not from God?
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Post by In Christ, the metalhead on Dec 9, 2005 17:47:10 GMT -5
oh, and death adder...: you said nature has the decision for when or how a person will die. Well, did God not create nature? did he not make the oceans, the heavens, and everything else that coexists in our world? It would almost seem fit to say God is nature, you can find him everywhere in it... well yes, i just realized that may have been totally off topic, lol, but what i was getting at was that it may seem just instantaneous when we all of a sudden die, but i think God consciously knows how and when and where we are going to die. If its fair to say he knew our parents and where we would be born at, i think its fair to say God knows the same about our death. That's just my opinion though, and I'm not sure it made too much sense.... lol, but whatever...
Umm, so about the death penalty... I totally agree with amoyensis and his opinion about it. It is not our decision as of when or how someone will die. I think rehabilitation is the answer and to repent from sins, to ask for Jesus's help. your'e toying with someone's life with the death penalty, its not right, and i don't agree with it.
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deadlock
Junior Member
"Onward Christian soldiers moshing as to war!"
Posts: 92
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Post by deadlock on Dec 10, 2005 9:23:32 GMT -5
Are some crimes just so heinous, though, that the death penalty is justified? I believe that there are. Granted, I do not believe that it should be handed out very often (In Jesus' days, though, crucifixions were given out for even the smallest offenses, yet He never spoke against them. Why?). However, I DO think that cases such as the guy in Florida, where he kidnapped and raped the 9 year old girl and buried her alive, those type crimes deserve the death penalty.
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Post by amoyensis on Dec 10, 2005 11:48:19 GMT -5
Who are we to judge when a person should or should not die?
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Post by koihoshi on Dec 10, 2005 13:59:16 GMT -5
I see your point amoyensis.
I believe sometimes it's better to let people that do heinous things to let them rot in jail. However, the growing NUMBERS of people who are pure dirt in society taking up jailspace are unecessary cost to us (I know I know... shame on me for thinking how dare we justify tax cost vs a human life) but these people have done horrible things, if the state or government justifies it deemable that they deserve the death penalty I'm not against it. Would you really want someone who raped your child, beat them to death and buried them BACK in our society?
Really I'm morally against it, but at a standpoint of keeping these horrible people out of our society why give them the chance to redeem themselves and get out of jail to do it again when you can eliminate the cause at the root of the problem.
I'm not asking anyone else to agree with my opinion. It is afterall MY opinion. Think what you will.
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deadlock
Junior Member
"Onward Christian soldiers moshing as to war!"
Posts: 92
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Post by deadlock on Dec 10, 2005 16:29:00 GMT -5
Good points, Koihoshi and Amoyensis. I, as an individual, do not have the right to decide if or when someone else dies. That's murder, and there are laws against that. However, as a nation, with laws, the collective citizentry can sentence a person to die. The State's laws trumps my belief as an individual. It's a complicated issue. If my wife or daughter was murdered horribly by someone, my thirst for blood would be high! I guess that is why belief in God can help, though, to maybe eventually forgive. It would take a long time to forgive, though, and I know I wouldn't be able to do it without help from the Holy Spirit.
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Post by amoyensis on Dec 10, 2005 17:24:03 GMT -5
I believe sometimes it's better to let people that do heinous things to let them rot in jail. However, the growing NUMBERS of people who are pure dirt in society taking up jailspace are unecessary cost to us (I know I know... shame on me for thinking how dare we justify tax cost vs a human life) but these people have done horrible things, if the state or government justifies it deemable that they deserve the death penalty I'm not against it. You brought up the tax money thing. It actually costs more money to put someone on death row than to give them a life sentence in prison, because if someone is put on death row, they can appeal their sentence to every level of the justice system (i.e. they can start low and work their way up all the way to the supreme court, no matter how much evidence is stacked against them), thus (a) delaying their penalty, and (b) using lots more tax dollars in the legal system. No. I'd want them to be put in jail and have psychological treatment.
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Post by amoyensis on Dec 10, 2005 17:25:46 GMT -5
Good points, Koihoshi and Amoyensis. I, as an individual, do not have the right to decide if or when someone else dies. That's murder, and there are laws against that. However, as a nation, with laws, the collective citizentry can sentence a person to die. The State's laws trumps my belief as an individual. It's a complicated issue. The State's laws trumps your beliefs? If the state supports it, you support it? I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at. That's exactly my point; because if that person genuinely repented, then God would forgive him, and we are called to forgive just as God forgives. I think that's what you were getting at in your first post as well.
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Post by koihoshi on Dec 10, 2005 20:14:37 GMT -5
No no no, my point was would you want them BACK in society?
Often times we stick them in jail, they play nice, we let them BACK OUT. Why give them the chance? That's just my opinion. But then again people suffer in jail, horrible things, it's nearly torture and sometimes IS torture. So my justification to that is who are we to decide their death and their torture? You say we are not judges, and we aren't. Yet we decide people's fate and death every day in the legal system. If the world were not ran with rules and didn't have some sort of engagement and consistent treatment to regulate things we'd be a mess.
As to the tax dollars, once we let them out because of letting them OUT of prison and they do something more... they go to court, waste more money on the trial trying to get out of it and REPEAT it. It happens all the time. The damage they cause in damage alone because we let these people out (because we run out of room in some states to HOLD THEM) and the money it costs to put them back through trial (and this only goes for repeat offenders who get out) end up costing more because we keep giving them more chances, let them kill again, give them another chance, punish them again.... etc. It happens every single day.
As far as I'm concerned I'd rather let someone waste my tax dollars resolving the issue at the root cause than letting my tax money hold someone for a while only to let them out and kill someone again. You can bring up as MANY points, as many facts, as many opinions that you want but I'll feel no differently about people who rape, murder, slice, dice and torture other human beings. God forgives people, God is the ultimate judge. Those people can come to terms as much as they want but if you don't do something about it then it may only happen again.
I'll put it this way because clearly you are being combative and trying to flame me amoyensis and it's starting to make me mad so here you go.
Death penalty? I may not agree with it, but it is getting rid of the offenders before they can offend again. I DO NOT WANT THOSE PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIETY. Therefore if they deem it appropriate then SO BE IT.
You can point people in the right direction, you can try to make them change, you can punish them all you want on those people.
Ultimately, every man makes his own decision. Criminals are no exception.
Just my opinion. If i killed someone, raped them, murdered their family and they said "Time for the death penalty" I'd understand. If they let me out so i could do it again i'd be laughing saying "WOW look at these people, are they that stupid? Hmmm i'll play nice for a day or two and it's back to the ballgame!". No. I don't want those people in my society. People's lives being at stake every day because of repeat offenders, molestors, rapists... solve the issue at the root cause.
Call me cold, call me mean, flame me all you want amoyensis, i feel no sympathy for them.
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deadlock
Junior Member
"Onward Christian soldiers moshing as to war!"
Posts: 92
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Post by deadlock on Dec 10, 2005 21:17:37 GMT -5
[ The State's laws trumps your beliefs? If the state supports it, you support it? I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at./quote] What I mean by the State's laws trumping my own beliefs is that if the State, by virtue of its voters and lawmakers, say that the death penalty is valid, then it doesn't matter what I believe as an individual, the law says it is o.k. so I have to live by that law. That certainly doesn't mean that I support it! The law says that abortion is legal, yet I absolutely ABHOR the thought of abortions. I can work to change the State's laws, but yet I have to live by them. If called to serve on a jury for a death penalty case, I would have to abide by the laws as to whether a guilty murderer got the dealth penalty, putting my own beliefs aside, whether I agreed with the law or not. Koihishi, don't get bugged by Amoyensis. This is a topic that has strong beliefs on both sides, for and against, and Amoyensis is simply debating the opposite side. I don't think he is getting combative, I just think that he likes to debate issues with others. He's an O.K. dude.
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Post by shredmetal777 on Dec 10, 2005 21:34:21 GMT -5
The Bible says forgive those who tresspase against you,because God forgives us of our tresspases. God will forgive the most vile man if they repent and accept him,I think somebody that has commited a terrible crime should definetly be kept away from society,but I think the time we should die should be left up to God.
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Post by amoyensis on Dec 10, 2005 23:42:30 GMT -5
Hey Koihoshi.
I don't quite understand why you got the idea that I would 'flame' you. If you've interpreted anything that I've said here as a personal attack then I'm sorry for that and I can assure you that it wasn't my intent. I've been scanning my posts over and over and I have yet to find anything, but if you can point something out to me then I'd be glad to edit it out. The last thing I want to happen is for this to become a clash of personalities, and in all of my debates I make attempts to be as objective as possible.
As for your post itself: the debate here is not about whether criminals should be let back into society, but whether they should die. Your argument proposes that there are only two options: 1. death penalty, or 2. they get back into society. You based your entire last post on the idea that criminals who go to jail inevitably get released from jail. And quite simply, that isn't the case. It happens, and I disagree with it most of the time, but to make an absolute statement like that is simply false.
You can choose to believe what you'd like about the death penalty, but don't insinuate that I support the reintegration of dangerous criminals into society, because that's unfair to me and you're cheating yourself out of what could potentially be a very open discussion of the implications of this issue.
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Post by koihoshi on Dec 11, 2005 3:32:33 GMT -5
No, i was simply saying that in reply to the one section you had commented in reply of my post. Nothing more. I'll leave this discussion be before I make someone mad including myself.
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