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Post by Brent on Sept 17, 2009 5:42:26 GMT -5
Now it becomes an argument based on one's definition of evil, which would have to be agreed upon by all parties. I honestly don't remember how to argue this point, I'm sure it's in one of the other threads where I've beaten it to death.
And this is beyond the point, but the fawn would probably be too charred for consumption.
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Post by clareabel on Sept 17, 2009 5:48:10 GMT -5
I didn't mean eating the fawn. I meant other food resources. And I agree that this is as far as there is any point in debating, due to our different views on evil. It just becomes an insult-throwing competition after this. And you're much better at that than me.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 17, 2009 7:18:20 GMT -5
^No, you had a good point, Clare.
The Bible says, like in the verse you provided earlier, Brent, that God creates calamity and disaster in the world. The Bible says that God is good in EVERYTHING he does. The Bible says that God rises above man's knowledge to the degree that it is utterly impossible for us to even scratch the surface of his complete nature. Furthermore, it says that God has a purpose for everything he does.
Even if silly Bambi went down screaming and writhing in hot, golden flames. It's the way the world wor--
Wait. You were serious?
Natural forest fires, evil? Please excuse my hearty, Santa Claus round of belly laughter.
"Ho, ho, ho!" etc.
If everything in nature was designed to "teach man a lesson," then what on earth is the purpose of that wee rock floating through space about 300 kabrillion miles away from here? (Yes, that's a made up number.) You don't have to go making up (emotional-ish?) stories about animals being burned to death in order to make the argument:
"Things happen in this world that I can't explain. There is no god."
---
Nevertheless, I know the LAST thing you want is my opinion (either that or a stoned skunk stuck under your bed.) But the forest fire analogy is a very, very weak one. Do you not know the benefits that come about through natural forest fires? Want to know how much?
I'll tell you how much.
Tons! That's what. Tons of good. (This is aside the point, you understand. I'm simply commenting on the example.)
Like Clare said, there are goods to take into account that definitely outweigh the "bads" (NOT EVIL, KAYTHANX!!!1) Our individual definitions of evil are very important at this point, yes. The Bible's: basically anything against God, anything morally wrong, etc.
A forest fire burning a fawn to a sizzling black crisp is not morally wrong. It's the way of nature. It is how God designed things to work. Who are we, as mere creatures ourselves, to point out what we do and don't like about it?
"Um. Hai god. I dennae like it when fawns burn to death. Ur evil. lol."
Hehe...
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Post by Maarten on Sept 17, 2009 7:39:08 GMT -5
Now it becomes an argument based on one's definition of evil, which would have to be agreed upon by all parties. I was going to participate in this debate, but for, once I agree with you. ;D Since I believe there is an absolute authority, who I believe has the right to judge between good and evil, it's all too easy for me to start talking. However, I would probably end up completely disregarding your point of view, and not make the least bit of sense to you, because we have different definitions of the concept of good & evil. May I ask a question? How do you perceive good and evil?
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Post by Scott on Sept 17, 2009 9:02:50 GMT -5
Grounded in, but not completely based upon. I'm also neither extroverted nor emotional. Both points: I know. This is why I've scratched my head at you. You are definitely not a dime a dozen Christian. You are very logical and introverted. Two usual characteristics of a non-theist. But the city you were in, Lubbock, was one of, if not the most conservative cities in America. I was a Christian before I lived in Lubbock. As Ethan said, I grew up in Austin, which is a generally more liberal city. I went to college in Lubbock because Texas Tech gave me the best deal as far as tuition and scholarship go. My parents are Christians but I was never forced to go to church (except early on when it would have been negligent to leave me at home alone, of course). At one point I even did (and would again, to smaller degrees, at later times) wrestle heavily with theism vs non-theism. Finally I decided to look heavily (because the most informed decision should be the best) into, if a higher being exists, if there is a way that one ought to live, how could one be sure? In Christianity I have found something that has not failed me in what I seek to attain: awareness and growth in wisdom and love (for instance, I find that by seeking to unlearn and quiet myself to hear the Holy Spirit, I find myself much less prone to judge others than if I make mental effort and go around thinking "ok ok ok don't judge don't judge even though you want to think that guy over there is probably the biggest tool ever..."). As far as contradictions go, I believe that I could have a shot at answering many of them, though I do not claim to be a biblical scholar. Concerning the OT laws....I consider those to be the most epic use of sarcasm ever, but no one caught it at the time. God told the Israelites "Love God with all your heart....love your neighbour as yourself." This wasn't enough though. Instead of relying on God to show us what this means in our lives, we decided to use our brains to decide what our limits are and set up a specific way to follow in order not to screw up. When asked for more laws, God tries to show us how ridiculous we are being by giving us ridiculous laws. Few could understand, though.
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runny
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Post by runny on Sept 17, 2009 9:38:00 GMT -5
Since when did God make eating a plant a sin? Genesis 1:12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. I think you are missing the EVERY SEED-BEARING PLANT part. (just a thought) So if you want to call smoking, growing, eating, whatever with marijuana a sin, Uh... your wrong.
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Post by Maarten on Sept 17, 2009 10:14:35 GMT -5
As for the consumption of drugs, I think it's more like drunkenness than consuming some plant for food. Hence, I don't think it's a sin, it's just plain stupid.
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Post by Paul on Sept 17, 2009 11:50:36 GMT -5
tbh, I mostly agree with you nowadays I was just amused when you told him to look on wiki
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Post by clareabel on Sept 17, 2009 11:59:57 GMT -5
Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
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runny
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Post by runny on Sept 17, 2009 12:06:25 GMT -5
Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
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Post by clareabel on Sept 17, 2009 12:23:31 GMT -5
Smoking =/= eating
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runny
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Post by runny on Sept 17, 2009 13:00:54 GMT -5
True, but God has given us the plants for our benefit.
I would say i would prefer to eat it than smoke it just because its healthier that way.
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Post by Maarten on Sept 17, 2009 13:19:37 GMT -5
consuming for trip =/= consuming as food
God made the world so we have alcohol, but the bible still talks about drunkenness as something for fools. I'm not too big on biology, but I'm sure weed has some purpose in the ecosystem besides letting us trip.
I don't say it's a sin, I say it's just plain stupid
Ephesians 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the spirit.
Or will you argue with me that taking drugs for the trip, is different from taking wine for the drunkenness?
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runny
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Post by runny on Sept 17, 2009 13:45:21 GMT -5
Uh.... I never said I did it for the trip in the first place, I just do it for taste.
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 17, 2009 13:54:55 GMT -5
I would say i prefer to eat it than smoke it just because its healthier that way. real medical uses: Appetite Stimulate, Glaucoma, etc BUT to address taking weed for fun I'd have to go w/ the "all things in moderation" saying. So basically, as long as it doesn't completely consume you, you don't abuse it, and you don't use it excessively it's ok. though i can't i know this to be 100% true. side note: I'd say I'm for the most part against all forms of smoking in general. ALSO: ha ha ha just found this-----> www.temple420.org/P.S. my definition of evil: that which is not of God, the absence / opposition of God
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