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Post by thedude on Apr 24, 2010 1:09:29 GMT -5
Personally, I'd say that without a God, or another outside entity offering an absolute moral standard, morals do not exist.
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Post by Jeremy on Apr 24, 2010 3:06:12 GMT -5
Personally, I'd say that without a God, or another outside entity offering an absolute moral standard, practicing morality is ridiculous.
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Post by Azrael on May 3, 2010 19:59:44 GMT -5
His argument that atheism allows for the repression of a minority to bring happiness to a majority begins on a flawed premise. When he says "The greatest happiness for the greatest number of people means that a minority of people should suffer in bondage. This way the greatest amount of freedom for the majority is insured," he presents that flawed premise. The greatest amount of overall freedom and happiness for the greatest majority is preserved when everyone shares it equally. In addition to that, if one were to oppress a minority, it would eventually become inevitable that the minority will rebel and overthrow the ruling class. One can see numerous examples of this occurring throughout history. This will inevitably cause more suffering and more oppression in the future, which is completely counterproductive. Therefore, to preserve the largest amount of freedom and happiness while simultaneously insuring the least amount of suffering, slavery is one of the worst possible options. Furthermore, he ends his argument using a very demagogue-esque appeal to emotion, essentially trying to shock you into saying "OMG ATHEISM IS FULL OF MORALLY DEFICIENT PSYCHOPATHS!!" I have no respect for this man. He gives the rest of us Christians a terrible name. Regardless, he is correct. It is impossible for anyone who does not ascribe to a higher power than man to have a moral code based on anything but society, and by definition, that is not true morality. I tend not to wave this around when talking to Atheists, however I do have a good deal more respect for Nihilists than most Atheists as they admit this fact and have logically consistent beliefs. The truth is that morals, like love, are an illusion of the human mind dangled in front of us by our own evolutionary past, so long as there is no God. You can't respect an illusion. You can't place value in it. All is relative. Nothing is wrong. Nothing is right. It simply is. I've argued against Atheists who, when cornered by me with this logical conclusion, have backpeddled into admitting rape is sanctified if it is socially accepted. I refuse to believe that. I don't want to argue with Atheists. That makes them walk away hating Christianity even more. I don't want to debate Atheists. That makes them walk away thinking of a million more reasons why they are right. I want to talk with Atheists. That is the only event that lets them walk away asking questions.
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Post by Brent on May 4, 2010 3:21:20 GMT -5
If there's no consequences for an action and I want to do it, then I'll do it
Simple as that. It's pretty pathetic how the only thing holding back people from doing certain things is written in a book from the bronze age. But whatever.
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Post by Muffy on May 4, 2010 4:27:57 GMT -5
But no! The consequences come AFTER you die!
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Post by Brent on May 4, 2010 5:57:16 GMT -5
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Post by Muffy on May 4, 2010 7:12:08 GMT -5
inorite? Isn't it crazy how amazingly convenient it is?
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Post by notavailable on May 4, 2010 21:32:11 GMT -5
If there's no consequences for an action and I want to do it, then I'll do it Simple as that. It's pretty pathetic how the only thing holding back people from doing certain things is written in a book from the bronze age. But whatever. But no! The consequences come AFTER you die! inorite? Isn't it crazy how amazingly convenient it is?
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Post by Brent on May 4, 2010 22:54:12 GMT -5
FUNNY THING YOU MENTION THIS
PRETTY FUNNY HOW IN THE OLD TESTIMENT THESE KINDS OF THINGS WERE COMMONPLACE AND THE SAME GOD EVEN ENDORSED SOME OF THEM LOL
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Post by Brent on May 4, 2010 23:00:45 GMT -5
The Christian God is a hypocritical joke basically
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Post by Patrick on May 4, 2010 23:29:08 GMT -5
I have an answer for that, but that's not the issue. The fact is that there are commandments and moral guidlines in the Bible. Whether God broke His own rules is a seperate argument, and we can debate it in a different thread if you desire. The issue is that the Bible lays down moral priciples for people to generally live by. It gives us an ideal of what is good and bad. My statements and questions from the previous post still stand.
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Post by Brent on May 4, 2010 23:34:12 GMT -5
It stands as an opinion. "We need a guide greater than ourselves to live a moral life"
100% opinion.
My opinion is your opinion is retarded.
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Post by Jeremy on May 5, 2010 0:53:34 GMT -5
Douches: they have a purpose.
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Post by Patrick on May 5, 2010 1:13:16 GMT -5
It stands as an opinion. "We need a guide greater than ourselves to live a moral life" 100% opinion. My opinion is your opinion is retarded. Fine. What you think of my opinion is irrelevant. I don't like your opinion either, but we are here to debate, not agree with one another, and my logic must be met with logic, not emotion. I accidently deleted my old post so I will summarize the challenge I posed to your earlier statement. If there's no consequences for an action and I want to do it, then I'll do it Simple as that. It's pretty pathetic how the only thing holding back people from doing certain things is written in a book from the bronze age. But whatever. Why is it pathetic that a person could be kept from doing certain things by a book? Wouldn't it be better if a "silly" book kept someone from murdering than if the person had nothing but their conscience to keep them from murder? Some people's consciences tell them to murder. Human laws often reward people for doing harmful things, but the Bible doesn't change and it gives a practical moral standard for people to generally follow. Your first statement is the main reason why I believe people need the Bible. A person living by his or her wants and desires is a frightening and selfish proposition because of how much more fickle and changing wants and desires are than an ancient book that about one billion people view as holy.
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Post by Brent on May 5, 2010 1:34:27 GMT -5
It's silly because for all we know the bible is a book written by mere mortals, who are no more qualified to create laws than you or I. Once again, it is your faith that the book is holy and descended from God.
And you assume most people are like me, when in fact, they are not. However, I will say it again, religion is the ultimate mixed blessing. It keeps people from not doing s**t, like my dad. He has said if he didn't believe in God he would have killed himself long ago. He is just feeble minded and ignorant in that way. I will live in balanced state, to find happiness every day until I die, whenever that may be. I am selfish and want the best for myself, the self is the only thing that matters to me.
Bottom line is I don't do s**t because of the potential mortal consequences and penalties, not the potential immortal consquences which are unverifiable.
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