Cutting the leaves, not the roots.

[conner]

The past few months have been a spiritual awakening of sorts for me, and I've begun to think more in tune with the Spirit (or at least I think so!) in regards to how we, as Christians, need to react to things such as gay marriage, abortion, teaching evolution in schools, etch.

In short, we shouldn't react at all, really.

In not-short, we can't expect non-Christians to not sin. We can't tell them everything they're doing wrong, but we should tell them everything we love about them. We can't just chop at the leaves of gay marriage and abortion and expect the roots of a life without Christ to be uprooted.

I recently saw a study that polled non-Christians and asked them the number one thing they know about Christianity and they responded with "They hate gay people."

Am I the only one completely disgusted with this? We need to love people, not hate them. We can't hate them and then expect them to accept Christ.

I know I didn't word this eloquently, I've been pretty sick recently and I'm still having trouble organizing my thoughts, so if you have questions about what I'm trying to convey I won't be offended haha.

[crazedshredder]

I agree with everything you said.

[Jeremy]

You don't believe that evolution occurs?

[conner]

I was just listing that as a hot-button thing that a lot of Christians get all angry about.

I honestly haven't looked into it enough to say either way, and don't really care to be frank.

My point was that we are just supposed to love people, not have them conform to beliefs they don't have.

[Jeremy]

k

basically agree.

"We need to love people, not hate them. We can't hate them and then expect them to accept Christ."

[Radiant Magnificence Alastair]

They'd just say they're hating the sin, not the people.

[conner]

Which would be countered with "this is who I am, if you hate 'the sin' then you hate me".

Positivity and love are the only ways to make a positive change in people.

[Paul]

.

[Maarten]

Feb 10, 2011 0:57:03 GMT -5 Radiant Magnificence Alastair said:

They'd just say they're hating the sin, not the people.

But the bible says about God, in Psalm 5:5
'You hate all workers of iniquity'

See this for better explanation:



Note that this is more about the hatred of God, rather than ours. Bashing sinners, I believe, often comes from selfishness and an attitude that is born from pride and a lack of awareness off ones own sin. I felt it was relevant somehow though.

Feb 10, 2011 1:46:22 GMT -5 Paul said:

People don't go to hell because they're gay. People go to hell because they reject Jesus. And because they reject Jesus, they have no problem being gay.

But Revelation 20:12 says:

"I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works."

I believe both (practising) homosexuality and rejecting Christ are sinful works that will cause people to be cast into hell. However a homosexual with faith in Jesus will be justified and saved, but a faithless man who's straight will not.

[Paul]

.

[Azrael]

Feb 10, 2011 11:05:57 GMT -5 Maarten said:

However a homosexual with faith in Jesus will be justified and saved, but a faithless man who's straight will not.

This I disagree with.

I remember the parable where the father invites people to his son's wedding. One of the men comes and refuses to change out of his clothes. He is tossed out.

That's talking about refusing to change our lives. We know what God wants from us. We need to become what he has set out for us and we can't cling to the things that we want or believe are right for ourselves.

As for the teachings and people thinking Christians are gay-obsessed, its' a double edged sword.

There are two fundamental polarities that keep shifting further away. The angry tent revivalists are all about condemning sin and make this their mission. They get so horribly exclusive and attitudinal that they are incapable of saving anybody.

Then there are the liberal doctrine churches like ECUSA and the Unies. They are so desperate to be inclusive that they are willing to unravel church doctrine to get more people.

Both sides see the other and it really fires them up. The left sees the thumpers and yells out "Those queer haters, we'll show them. We'll have gay bishops and priests." The thumpers see the left and say "Those sinful heretics! Don't they know that homosexuality is a sin? We must tell them and everybody else who will listen!"

And thus the entire conversation between the poles of Christianity has focused on homosexuality.

The facts are that homosexuality is wrong. But it's also wrong to go around making this your mission in life. Christ didn't waste much time condemning sexual misconduct. In fact, there are two instances. He tells the fornicating woman whom he saved from stoning to "go and sin no more." He also points out that the woman at Jacob's well had a history of promiscuity.

The church needs to hold to stick to its doctrine, but do it in a loving way.

[conner]

It's not our job to condemn, we are no better than the pharisees if we do so.

All we can do is spread Christ's love, and then the Spirit will do the cleansing.

[Maarten]

Feb 10, 2011 15:14:36 GMT -5 Azrael said:

Feb 10, 2011 11:05:57 GMT -5 Maarten said:

However a homosexual with faith in Jesus will be justified and saved, but a faithless man who's straight will not.

This I disagree with.

I remember the parable where the father invites people to his son's wedding. One of the men comes and refuses to change out of his clothes. He is tossed out.

Ah, I agree. I reckon regeneration is an inherent fruit of true faith in Christ. However a homosexual might not be completely sanctified concerning this topic the moment he is saved. So someone who might still be struggling with this sin after having been converted would be both a homosexual and justified right?

Feb 10, 2011 15:20:57 GMT -5 conner said:

It's not our job to condemn.

Well, if you add 'those outside the church' to that, I'll agree with you.

However, even if we only keep up our ethics inside the church, we are still bound to get into conflict with the world. An incident that happened in the Catholic church in Holland about a year ago illustrates this perfectly. Basically, what happened, some priest refused to let a practising homosexual participate in the Eucharist. It some got a bunch of media attention and caused quite a bit of commotion for about a week. Politicians used this oppertunity to show how accepting of gays they were, some gay orginasations used this incident to get some publicity, there were a bunch of articles in the newspapers criticizing the church. Now I for one, fully support this priest in his decision and if people think I'm a narrowminded homohating fool for that, so be it.

[Paul]

.

[dlectronic]

Feb 10, 2011 15:14:36 GMT -5 Azrael said:

This I disagree with.

I remember the parable where the father invites people to his son's wedding. One of the men comes and refuses to change out of his clothes. He is tossed out.

That's talking about refusing to change our lives. We know what God wants from us. We need to become what he has set out for us and we can't cling to the things that we want or believe are right for ourselves.

This is sounding very sketchy, Azrael. I typically agree with a lot that you say, but this sound very works-based and legalistic. Consider:

If I still struggle with a particular sin 10 years from now, will I be "tossed out" of the Kingdom?

A person who is a homosexual Christian now might still be tempted by homosexual thoughts down the road, but I will still struggle with lust and pride ten years down the road too. Perhaps being homosexual itself isn't the sin (like "being tempted by porn" isn't a sin in it of itself), but rather, committing homosexual lust and/or acts is the sin.

Or am I misunderstanding you?