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Post by Jacob on Nov 15, 2009 14:07:08 GMT -5
Van, you're arguing the exact thing the video said you can't do. Bringing up personal experiences to try to prove to others of God's existence.Did you watch it?
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Post by Muffy on Nov 15, 2009 14:33:48 GMT -5
Let's make jokes instead of care about God. I was totally f**king serious. I just can't agree with you on this one. When somebody experiences something that can be easily faked, and then posts it on the internet and expects everyone to just take his word for it... doesn't sound right to me.
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Post by Brent on Nov 16, 2009 0:25:45 GMT -5
I don't even care about the validity of what Vandenberg is saying, I'll take his word for it, the leg grew after he prayed. I get it.
The point is he has faith that the prayer was responsible for the leg growing. It is not based on logic. On a basic level, there is no proven way to communicate with supernatural beings which live outside our natural realm.
There is no point in beating that horse any longer, Vandenberg can be as thick headed as he wants. Every argument in this section of the forums boils down to faith vs. logic.
That's why I asked for the sticky request. The vid makes all further discussion moot.
But it's not going to happen, whatever. No harm in trying.
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Post by notavailable on Nov 16, 2009 0:48:27 GMT -5
Why the hell would you ever pray for a leg to grow out? That's f**king gross. Pervert.
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Post by Maarten on Nov 16, 2009 11:31:30 GMT -5
Van, you're arguing the exact thing the video said you can't do. Bringing up personal experiences to try to prove to others of God's existence.Did you watch it? Yes, quite a while ago though. But firstly, I'm not convinced personal experience is fallacious. Secondly, a non personal experience example which was investigated by a doctor perhaps? A while a ago I was reading a major Dutch newspaper, there was an article about a healer guy, Jan Zijlstra with a decent reputation in the Dutch charismatic world, from arround where I live, so I'd heard of him before and red the article. Basically, there was a woman who had some sort of serious medical condition, her doctor was interviewed in the article to confirm it, went to one of the healing services of this guy, Jan Zijlstra, and she stood up out of her wheelchair. I'm not sure what her condition was, but the she went to the fanciest hospital we have in Holland, and got everything checked, and all the specialists agreed that she had been utterly completely perfectly healed. It didn't happen at about the same time, it happened there, at the spot. Technically, there is still a ahcen that, as Brent suggests it might be some sort of idiotic coïncidence, but the doctor and the medical specialists were all convinced this woman was healed by the prayer, they couldn't see any other logical option. I just can't agree with you on this one. When somebody experiences something that can be easily faked, and then posts it on the internet and expects everyone to just take his word for it... doesn't sound right to me. You mean to say it might be so that my friend tricked me, or that I'm trying to trick you guys? I don't even care about the validity of what Vandenberg is saying, I'll take his word for it, the leg grew after he prayed. I get it. The point is he has faith that the prayer was responsible for the leg growing. It is not based on logic. This faith however, is built on the logical assumption that if people get healed when praying happens, it is likely prayer has something to do with these healings. I understand I cannot scientifically or logically prove that connection, but a little kid cannot scientifcally or logically prove that getting kicked hurts, however, after being kicked several times, the little kid will obviously deduce that the kicking is the cause of his pain. I do nothing different with assuming prayer is the cause of these healings. On a basic level, there is no proven way to communicate with supernatural beings which live outside our natural realm. How on earth do you know what's possible for a creature that lives outside our universe? Why do you try to rationalize something that goes beyond your comprehension? Just because you cannot comprehend how something outside of this universe can interfere and communicate with something inside this universe, does not mean it is immpossible. Human logics are based on this universe, so we cannot apply these prinicples to what is beyond our universe. Our ratio is can have difficulty with understanding how some things in our universe works, let alone something outside of our universe, it is immpossible for you to some that something outside of our natural realm could not communicate with us.
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Post by Brent on Nov 16, 2009 17:44:50 GMT -5
you are horrible at argumentation, vandenberg, just stop it. This is as invalid an argument as I've ever seen. These scenarios are completely different, yeah they both involve correlation vs. causation, but one involves supernatural and one does not. Getting physically kicked CAN BE f**kING VERIFIED, give me a f**king break for once. Praying to God is no different than praying to a celestial pink elephant. I can just as well f**king say that by praying to celestial pink elephant, that he cured my dick cancer. Saying prayer has logical roots is completely and utterly retarded and you still haven't watched the vid.
Because anything outside of our universe cannot be verified. I NEVER SAID IT WAS "IMMPOSSIBLE" TO COMPREHEND SOMETHING OUTSIDE OUR UNIVERSE, GOOD JOB PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I just have no reason to believe anything outside our universe exists, seeing as we live in this world. WHAT THE f**k DO WE USE THEN IF HUMAN LOGIC IS ONLY APPLICABLE TO THIS UNIVERSE? You want to know what that's called?
IT'S CALLED f**kING FAITH
I see ZERO reason to worship a being which doesn't even reside in the SAME d**n UNIVERSE AS ME
I have the same question back to you. Why do you try to rationalize something that goes beyond your comprehension? Why worship a God which we cannot completely understand? It comes down to faith vs. logic every time. You have faith in this God, I do not.
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Post by feverstone on Nov 17, 2009 1:00:31 GMT -5
Not meaning to barge in on your caps spittin' frenzy. And I know this is slightly off topic.
As I said in another thread (I think)...There's apparently a supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way. No one has seen it, but there is evidence that it exists. Would you categorize belief in that black hole as faith?
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Post by notavailable on Nov 17, 2009 1:32:49 GMT -5
Not meaning to barge in on your caps spittin' frenzy. And I know this is slightly off topic. As I said in another thread (I think)...There's apparently a supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way. No one has seen it, but there is evidence that it exists. Would you categorize belief in that black hole as faith? If you want your debacles with any reasonable member of this forum to go anywhere, you should really start addressing the points they bring up. Like Gangrene's points questioning the logic of worshiping a god that doesn't inhabit the same universe as ourselves, or the very valid differences between faith and logic. Every time someone brings a completely sound argument to the table, you put your hands over your ears and go "lalala can't hear you", and then respond with some cheesy pun about their "cap spittin' frenzy" or "internetz sooo serious buzniss", and then you think you've won! Oh yes, indeed you are triumphant because of your witty banter, even though along the way you completely ignored their arguments and forgot to even respond with something related to the topic at hand. You sir, fail.
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Post by Brent on Nov 17, 2009 1:35:28 GMT -5
Not meaning to barge in on your caps spittin' frenzy. And I know this is slightly off topic. As I said in another thread (I think)...There's apparently a supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way. No one has seen it, but there is evidence that it exists. Would you categorize belief in that black hole as faith? The Milky Way Galaxy is located within the Universe
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Post by feverstone on Nov 17, 2009 8:20:23 GMT -5
Not meaning to barge in on your caps spittin' frenzy. And I know this is slightly off topic. As I said in another thread (I think)...There's apparently a supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way. No one has seen it, but there is evidence that it exists. Would you categorize belief in that black hole as faith? If you want your debacles with any reasonable member of this forum to go anywhere, you should really start addressing the points they bring up. Like Gangrene's points questioning the logic of worshiping a god that doesn't inhabit the same universe as ourselves, or the very valid differences between faith and logic. Every time someone brings a completely sound argument to the table, you put your hands over your ears and go "lalala can't hear you", and then respond with some cheesy pun about their "cap spittin' frenzy" or "internetz sooo serious buzniss", and then you think you've won! Oh yes, indeed you are triumphant because of your witty banter, even though along the way you completely ignored their arguments and forgot to even respond with something related to the topic at hand. You sir, fail. Aaaaand we're back with Observation Fail. (It's quite alright, though.) Pay attention dude. I wasn't even debating, arguing a point, bantering, saying I won, or even choosing a side. I was wondering Brent's personal opinion on things that we haven't seen, felt, heard, smelled, etc... but have evidence for. Which he answered just fine without you butting in like a mad ovis canadensis. As for addressing his points, I don't even have time to read them...let alone argue against (or for) them. I've gone through 1 or 2 debates with him (where I tried to address every argument or point he brought up), and the discussions never accomplish anything. Nice off-topic discussion, though. You're becoming more like me. Keep up the good work. I was just wondering if you would use the word "faith" or not.
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Post by Maarten on Nov 17, 2009 8:28:24 GMT -5
you are horrible at argumentation, vandenberg, just stop it. This is as invalid an argument as I've ever seen. These scenarios are completely different, yeah they both involve correlation vs. causation, but one involves supernatural and one does not. Getting physically kicked CAN BE f**kING VERIFIED, give me a f**king break for once. Yes, getting healed can be verified as well. It's the cause that the subject in my siuation couldn't verify. Please explain to me why one being supernatural is a deal, in both situations, the reasoning is the same, the result can be verified, and the cause cannot. We can verify the cause of getting pain from being kicked with our science, but somebody without knowledge of science will still point towards the kick as the cause of the pain, eventhough he cannot understand how it works. Similarly, although I cannot understand how the healing works, I can verify the result, and I see a striking correlation between the prayer and the healing, and using exactly the same principle of reasoning as would somebody without knowledge of science in the situation I explained, I realise it is extremely likely that my prayer caused the healing. If a you had dick cancer, prayed to the celestial pink elephant according to some religion, and right there and then, your cancer withered and died and you were healed, my dear sir, you would have yourself an argument, but right now, you don't. The difference is that I did see healings happen after prayer, but nobody ever claimed to be healed by your celestial pink elephant. However, if you wish to adress the validity of my claimed healing, you're welcome to do so. I cannot prove the healing to you know, I am merely trying to explain to you why my faith has a solid and reasnoble root. You're right you never said that, I'm sorry if it seemed like I claimed you did, I claim something outside of this universe can not be comprehended by our current science or way of thinking. I never claimed I have no faith, I'm just claiming my faith makes a little bit of sense after seeing some of the miracles I described. I'm not trying to rationalize something that goes beyond my comprehension, as far as I can see. Whatever the bible says has been true in my life, and having accepted the bible as a valid source of information, I simply accept what it tells me about the personality and character of God. (the bible, and personal religious experiences) I worship God who goes beyond my comprehension because I love Him, because He is my redeemer and loved me first, which He demonstrated through various miracles and religious experience, seeking contact with me.
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Post by Jacob on Nov 17, 2009 11:59:13 GMT -5
I'm seriously not reading all of that. All the video is saying/doing is removing any argumentation on these boards because you can't prove or convince anyone with your faith.Why are we still writing 8 paragraph long discussions? Edit: I do agree this should be a sticky.
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Post by Maarten on Nov 17, 2009 12:08:56 GMT -5
Quite obviously, because I disagree with the video.
As I said, I did see the video, some time back, but I do not agree with this video, hence a discussion started.
I do think personal experience, to a degree, can be a usefull argument in such a discussion about the existence of God, and to explain your faith to others.
My other issue with this video, is that it is awefully hypocrite, if I remember it well. I remember that the point they were trying to make is that it's immpossible to have a reasonable discussion about your worldview/religion, and hence, all theïsts ought to shut up. If they blaim people with a different worldview for talking about their worldview too much, why on earth do they make a video to talk about their own?
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Post by Jacob on Nov 17, 2009 12:20:35 GMT -5
I believe they point out their hypocrisy in the video. They are just saying logically, it's not reasonable to believe any one thing over another.You believe that personal experiences can be a useful argument then go ahead and try as much as you want, but why do that on the internet, in a thread with a video saying you can't do that? You're trying to argue with a video for no reason.Unless you do have some intention behind this?
Btw,I'm Christian and believe just as much as you do I'm just saying there really shouldn't be an argument.
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Post by Zhou Tai 04 on Nov 17, 2009 12:33:42 GMT -5
Not meaning to barge in on your caps spittin' frenzy. And I know this is slightly off topic. As I said in another thread (I think)...There's apparently a supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way. No one has seen it, but there is evidence that it exists. Would you categorize belief in that black hole as faith? Nice strawman there.
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