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Post by Ferd Berfel on Jul 5, 2009 2:58:22 GMT -5
Because our sins are paid for under the sacrifice of Christ's blood.
This does not mean that we are not sinners. It means that our sins are already paid for, versus the high priest, who had to constantly make sacrifices to pay for his sins.
Basic human nature has not changed from old testament to new. The only difference is the method of sacrifice. They were sinners then, we are sinners now.
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Post by Metzuda on Jul 5, 2009 8:32:11 GMT -5
But human nature has changed for a Christian, has it not?
"our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;"
Because of what Jesus did, we are freed from our sin nature... a new creation. Or are we not?
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Post by Shiv on Jul 5, 2009 16:21:10 GMT -5
frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt No
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runny
New Member
I am cool or something.
Posts: 11
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Post by runny on Jul 5, 2009 22:36:28 GMT -5
Christians are still sinners too. Are they? I don't think so. Biblically, "sinner" I think would be associated with non-believers... as Mike Bickle said "Christians are lovers who sin, not sinners who try to love." So... I wouldn't say Christians are sinners. That's not to say we don't sin, but it's not our nature, anymore. ............................................________ ....................................,.-‘”...................``~., .............................,.-”...................................“-., .........................,/...............................................”:, .....................,?......................................................\, .................../...........................................................,} ................./......................................................,:`^`..} .............../...................................................,:”........./ ..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../ ............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../ .........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`........_/ ..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....} ...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../ ...,,,___.\`~,......“~.,....................`.....}............../ ............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-” ............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\ .............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__ ,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|..............`=~-, .....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\ ...................`=~-,,.\,...............................\ ................................`:,,...........................`\..............__ .....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==`` ........................................_\..........._,-%.......`\ ...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................`\
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Post by Metzuda on Jul 6, 2009 1:05:51 GMT -5
Anyone besides Ferd have an intelligent answer?
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Post by Ferd Berfel on Jul 6, 2009 3:49:22 GMT -5
But human nature has changed for a Christian, has it not? "our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;" Because of what Jesus did, we are freed from our sin nature... a new creation. Or are we not? No. We are never freed from our sin nature. We are forgiven, not freed. Romans, chapter 3, verses 9-26: We are forgiven because our sins have been paid for, but we are still sinners all the same. The verse you reference (Romans 6:6, do the world a favour and give the location of your verses. It's only polite to properly cite sources) must be taken in context. Romans, chapter 6, verses 1-14 Consider, now, the key phrases: "In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus." "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." These two verses point out that we still will struggle with sin, throughout our lives. The first segment of this passage is speaking of a metaphorical death of ourselves. In other words, it tells us that as Christians, we have been given a legacy to live up to. Jesus was the only person that ever lived a sinless life, and we must deny and kill our sinful nature in order to live up to that legacy. By being "baptized into His death", we are making a commitment to dedicate our lives to denying our sinful nature and living a life that mirrors the life of Christ. Verse 7, which uses the word "freed", is interpreted rather well using the Amplified version: "7For when a man dies, he is freed (loosed, delivered) from [the power of] sin [among men]." The power of sin is, of course, death. This doesn't mean that we will never experience death on earth, but that we are rather freed from the consequence of eternal death as a result of our sinful nature. Because of that, we are expected to live up to the legacy I spoke of in the above paragraphs. We are no different from any other human being on this earth, and to set ourselves up as such is nothing more than an act of utterly foolish pride.
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Post by Maarten on Jul 6, 2009 6:33:04 GMT -5
No. We are never freed from our sin nature. We are forgiven, not freed. I disagree. Let's consider these two phrases. If I die to sin, I'm quite sure I'm not a sinner anymore. If I don't let sin rule my mortal body, much the same. We must make the flesh subject to the spirit, and if, by Christ, we have done such a thing, our spirit prevails, in Christ, over our sinful nature. To be honest, I personally would have quoted these verses as an argument for not seeing Christians as sinners. Dying to sin = dying to yourself = dying to your sinful nature = not being a sinner. Yes, and if we died to ourselves, did we not also die to our sinful nature? There's a difference between having lived a sinful life, and living a sinful life. I still sin, but I don't live in sin, I live by the grace of Jesus Christ. I won't deny that grace by calling myself a sinner. It is indeed interpreted rather well: we are freed from the power of sin -> sin doesn't reign over us -> we are not sinners. I'd say death isn't the power of sin, it's the consequence of sin. I don't even consider my death on earth death, why would I, if my spirit will live, and dwell with God for all eternity? We are freed from the consequence of eternal death indeed, because Christ has bled our sins away, and we can now be holy, because of the sacrifice of Christ. Oh, but we are! I have accepted Christs death for the forgiveness of my sins, hence my sins are forgiven, whereas those of people who do not believe Christ has died for their sins, are not forgiven. So that doesn't make me better, we have all sinned, but it does make me more righteouss, because my sins are of the past, I no longer live in sin, whereas the other person does still live in sin. I still sin, but sinning and living in sin are two different things. Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ, and I longer live, but Christ lives in me." I ain't calling myself a sinner, if it's Christ living in me. If I sin, it's me failing in giving Christ all control of my life, but I am struggling hard to give Christ all that control, so that I can be holy. We did die for our sins, we died with Christ on the cross. I am not denying the death of Christ, by calling myself a sinner, rather I will live by His grace!
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Post by Metzuda on Jul 6, 2009 8:26:57 GMT -5
^ thanks. When I read Ferd's post I was like "oh man, I'm not going to bed any time soon..."
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Post by alastairjohnjack on Jul 6, 2009 8:35:49 GMT -5
I can sin, I can be sinning, but that obviously wouldn't make me a sinner.
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Post by Zhou Tai 04 on Jul 6, 2009 10:55:31 GMT -5
I can sin, I can be sinning, but that obviously wouldn't make me a sinner. The illogic of this statement astounds me.
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Post by alastairjohnjack on Jul 6, 2009 23:32:13 GMT -5
Indeed, but its what they're saying.
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Post by Josh on Jul 7, 2009 0:22:18 GMT -5
Sometimes the logic in things can be found in illogic.
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Post by Shiv on Jul 7, 2009 0:45:08 GMT -5
Sometimes the logic in things can be found in illogic. This was embarrassing to read
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Post by conner on Jul 7, 2009 0:45:52 GMT -5
Ithalyn: Embarrassing himself on the internet.
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Post by Josh on Jul 7, 2009 0:48:25 GMT -5
Shiv and Conner: Basically said the same thing....on the internet.
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