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Post by Ferd Berfel on Jul 7, 2009 1:35:15 GMT -5
I disagree. Let's consider these two phrases. If I die to sin, I'm quite sure I'm not a sinner anymore. If I don't let sin rule my mortal body, much the same. We must make the flesh subject to the spirit, and if, by Christ, we have done such a thing, our spirit prevails, in Christ, over our sinful nature. To be honest, I personally would have quoted these verses as an argument for not seeing Christians as sinners. Dying to sin = dying to yourself = dying to your sinful nature = not being a sinner. Ok, let me make this really simple for you guys. In the time that you have considered yourself a Christian, have you sinned? Even once? Did you sin today? We have NEVER died to our sinful nature. If you were to truly die to your sinful nature, you would never sin again. However, the presence of sin in your life indicates that your sinful nature is still very much alive. We are called daily to deny our sinful nature, which is itself an impossible task to accomplish. That is why we need forgiveness. If it was possible for us to completely die to our sinful nature, there would have been no point in Christ's sacrifice. Again, have you sinned recently? Or anytime within the course of your faith? If you have, then your sin nature is still alive and still maintains control over you. We aren't holy. None of us are "holy". We are sinners saved by grace, and the only way to ever be holy is to completely eradicate all sin from your life forever. That is an impossible task for any human being to achieve. You just don't get the point, do you? The definition of Sinner: "One that sins or does wrong" IF YOU SIN, YOU ARE A SINNER. That's it. End of story. Our sin nature is very much alive, and we constantly must battle against it in order to deny ourselves and glorify Christ. Wow, you're not even paying attention to context. I'm not even sure if you're worth debating if you won't even take a verse in context. Take Galatians, chapter 2 verse 17-21: Read verse 17. WE ARE SINNERS. All of us. Christ died to give us grace, and we are to follow His example by denying our sinful nature. However, our sin nature is still very much alive in us. We are forgiven, but still sinners.
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Post by Metzuda on Jul 7, 2009 1:57:32 GMT -5
I don't think it's worth arguing anymore. Both sides arguing their interpretation of the same verses...
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Post by Josh on Jul 7, 2009 2:02:56 GMT -5
I just take the bible literally.
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Post by Maarten on Jul 7, 2009 6:16:48 GMT -5
So do I. I can sin, I can be sinning, but that obviously wouldn't make me a sinner. No, because my past sins have been forgiven and delt with, if Christ died for my sin, calling myself a sinner would be denying His sacrifice, rather than living in His grace. I still sin, but I don't live in sin, that's the difference. My identity is not that of a sinner, but a child of God, because my live revolves arround God, rather than sin. Ok, let me make this really simple for you guys. In the time that you have considered yourself a Christian, have you sinned? Even once? Did you sin today? Yes, I have sinned in the time that I have considered myself a Christian. More than once in fact. Yes, I did sin today. I prayed for that sin to be forgiven, and it has been forgiven. We have NEVER died to our sinful nature. If you were to truly die to your sinful nature, you would never sin again. However, the presence of sin in your life indicates that your sinful nature is still very much alive. We are called daily to deny our sinful nature, which is itself an impossible task to accomplish. That is why we need forgiveness. If it was possible for us to completely die to our sinful nature, there would have been no point in Christ's sacrifice. I agree that there is still life left in my sinful nature, but I can assure you, I don't intend to have it live much longer, and I do my best to kill what is left of it every day. Where we disagree, Ferd, is that killing that sinfull nature is impossible, Paul seems to say of himself in Galatians 2:20 that he in fact did die to himself, which I think includes his sinful nature. I can see living without sin happening in my life; I'm quite sure it has happened in the past that I have lived without sin for at least a day. I believe Paul, who commands us several times to be holy and without sin, over you. Again, have you sinned recently? Or anytime within the course of your faith? If you have, then your sin nature is still alive and still maintains control over you. Yes, I have sinned recently, several times in the course of my faith. But having sinned, is not the same as being controlled by sin. My life is controlled and determined for by far the biggest part by God, rather than by sin. So the identity I belong to is I think not sin, but God. We aren't holy. None of us are "holy". We are sinners saved by grace, and the only way to ever be holy is to completely eradicate all sin from your life forever. That is an impossible task for any human being to achieve. The only way to be holy is through accepting the sacrifice of Christ, and allow Him to cleanse you from your sin, so that you can be holy. Paul commands us several times to be holy, why would he do that if it was immpossible? 2 Corinthians 7:1 "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contiminates our body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God" You just don't get the point, do you? The definition of Sinner: "One that sins or does wrong" IF YOU SIN, YOU ARE A SINNER. That's it. End of story. Our sin nature is very much alive, and we constantly must battle against it in order to deny ourselves and glorify Christ. I'm sorry, but we need more than a dictionary to dertermine the meaning of such biblical terms. My identity is not sinner, because, through the blood of Christ, I can now be holy, and come in the presence of God. Although sin still has a small grip on me, God holds me right in His arms! Why would I then continue to say sin rules me? For it is in fact God who determines the ways in which I walk, though unfortunably, I still allow sin to hinder Him sometimes. Our sinfull nature is indeed in most of us still alive, but that is why we must heed Pauls words and battle and kill it, in order to deny ourselves and to glorify Christ! We will never have a sinless life if your goal is struggling with sin, rather let our goals be to destroy and kill yourself and your sinfull nature with it, so that we may be holy! Wow, you're not even paying attention to context. I'm not even sure if you're worth debating if you won't even take a verse in context. I can assure you, I have red the context several times. I can quote this passage in the original Greek context, and upon this very verse, I have meditated several hours. Maybe you should heed the context better, one of the main theological teachings in Galatians is that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ - nothinmg less, nothing more - and that we are sanctified not by legalistic works, but by the obedience that comes from faith in God's work for him, in him, and through him by the grace and power of Christ and the Holy Spirit. This letter is send to Jews in Galatia, who believed that some Old Testament practices were still binding in the new covenant, wich has come through Jesus Christ. You are thinking in the same way as those Galatians, Christ died for our justification, and that's it. You try to live in the law, and condemn yourself as a sinner, rather than accepting Christs grace, and following Him. Read verse 17. WE ARE SINNERS. All of us. Christ died to give us grace, and we are to follow His example by denying our sinful nature. However, our sin nature is still very much alive in us. Paul, in this passage, uses if. The phrase is contidional, not declaritive. We are forgiven, but still sinners. A paradox, just as illogical as my own.
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Post by Josh on Jul 7, 2009 7:37:53 GMT -5
What's this? A witty remark by Joshua that is funny? I'll be honest, I LOL'd. Heh I'm glad ^-^
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Post by alastairjohnjack on Jul 7, 2009 7:41:52 GMT -5
So do I. I can sin, I can be sinning, but that obviously wouldn't make me a sinner. No, because my past sins have been forgiven and delt with, if Christ died for my sin, calling myself a sinner would be denying His sacrifice, rather than living in His grace. I still sin, but I don't live in sin, that's the difference. My identity is not that of a sinner, but a child of God, because my live revolves arround God, rather than sin. Of course it isn't your identity, but you still are a sinner.
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Post by Maarten on Jul 7, 2009 12:01:14 GMT -5
I have danced in the past, and will probably at some point dance again, but does that make me a dancer? I have sung, and will probably sing again, but am I a singer? I have sinned in the past, and will probably sin again, but does that make me a sinner?
I say no to all three......
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Post by Josh on Jul 7, 2009 12:12:36 GMT -5
I say yes to all 3, because you have the potential of doing all 3 extremely well.
At that moment that you are singing, you are not a dancer, you are a singer, just as you sin, your not a pure innocent person, you are a sinner.
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Post by Maarten on Jul 7, 2009 16:36:04 GMT -5
But calling me a singer, in the moment I sing, is misleading, people would think I do it often, or that it somehow is important for my identity, while in fact, I just a random guy singing a song.
In the same way, when I screw up once, I don't become a sinner all of a sudden, the term sinner would imply that I live my life in sin, and that sin is something important to me and my identity, while in fact, I live my life trying not to sin.
I would only call somebody a dancer, when he does it often and loves it and either practices it a lot as a hobby, or if he is a dancer for a job. Dancing in that case determines the identity of the person. Because I don't especially much like dancing, nor practice in it, nor do it for a job, nobody would ever think I am a dancer. In the same way, I don't think I ought to be called a sinner, nor should any Christian be, because they are supposed to live their lifes revolving arround God, rather than arround sin.
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Post by Metzuda on Jul 7, 2009 21:00:05 GMT -5
I say yes to all 3, because you have the potential of doing all 3 extremely well. At that moment that you are singing, you are not a dancer, you are a singer, just as you sin, your not a pure innocent person, you are a sinner. Yes, but potential is different than what is. The outside perception of something and it's actual identity are two different things. Because we are freed from the bondage of sin, we do not have to sin, whereas someone who has not been freed from it does... people do not have the natural ability to do good... if they do do good, then it is through the softening influence of God (God, in His sovereignty, giving them the ability to do good acts). However, we, having been freed from sin, through Christ are able to choose not to sin: it is He who is becoming the governing influence on our wills. As we submit more and more of ourselves to Jesus' Lordship, He will grow as the dominant influence on our wills. So, then, more and more, our identity becomes rooted and grounded in Christ... as vandenburg said, to say that we are still sinners is basically to affirm that we are still of a sinful nature (which means that Christ's sacrifice did not break that bondage) and that Jesus is not Lord in our lives.
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Post by Maarten on Jul 16, 2009 5:36:31 GMT -5
In addition, I think everything that has no relation to God, is meaningless. Of all the bands I've heard, the only ones I stick with and enjoy the most are the ones who claim Jesus as their savior and don't flirt with evil. I have little interest in anything less. I'm not saying that if anything is not of/for God that it is not enjoyable. It just doesn't seem to have long-term value. Und soll wie aller Music also auch des Generalbasses Finis und Endursache anders nicht als nur zu Gottes Ehre und Recreation des Gemütes seyn. Wo dieses nicht in acht genommen wird, ists keine eigentliche Music, sondern ein Teuflisches Geplerr und Geleyer. ~J.S. Bach (it means Like all music, the figured bass should have no other end and aim than the glory of God and the recreation of the soul; where this is not kept in mind there is no true music, but only an infernal clamour and ranting.)
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Post by Maarten on Jul 17, 2009 6:06:44 GMT -5
I know I'm double posting, but I have something usefull to say.
Yesterday God gave me a bible passage which I think is appropriate for the discussion we had about being a sinner or not, when you are saved by grace.
Romans 14:1-4
"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to pass judgement on someon else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."
I would like to apologize to Ferd, and to the others who were in the other side of the discussion. To be honest, although our difference in opinion on this may be the result of an underlying difference in faith, in the end we were just discussion the meaning of the word sinner. Where I and Metzuda on the one hand used it for someone whose life and identity is determined by sin, Ferd and some others on the other used it for somebody who has at some point sinned, and who will at at some point probably sin again. Both sides threw some very harsh words and judgements to eachother, which created some negative sentiment towards eachother over a fairly disputable matter. I can't apologize for anybody else, and I'm not going to go judging again and tell everybody where I think they went wrong, but I know for myself a couple of things I said were too harsh and arose from a too judgemental state of mind, and I would again like too apologize for them. Feel free to do the same if you were involved in that discussion and think you might have been a little too harsh on such a matter as well.
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Post by Maarten on Aug 29, 2009 13:20:54 GMT -5
However, I'll do something for you. I'll cut Satanic music out of my diet for a period of time. If I become a significantly better Christian in that time, I will cut it out permanently. But I'm through arguing with you, Mods lock if you wish. So Ethan, did you give up on listening to satanic music for awhile? did it have any effect? You don't have to be scared I'll go arguing again because of your reply, I'm just curious to find out what happened. I won't start this discussion again. (If somebody else starts it, I might, if I think I have something useful and new to add, participate in it though). .
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Post by nofarttoofar on Aug 29, 2009 13:39:23 GMT -5
I wouldn't say it strengthened my faith, but I believe it did help me focus on God more, and so I do plan on taking these "breaks" again.
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Post by Metzuda on Aug 30, 2009 4:31:32 GMT -5
Hmm. You don't want increased focus on God all the time?
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