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Post by Scott on Sept 15, 2009 23:30:42 GMT -5
Oh yes, that's exactly why I pray. why do you pray you seem like an incredibly intelligent and logical person, every time you post your class schedule my brain hurts but seriously why should I believe in prayer As before, I can't make you believe in any of it other than experiencing it for yourself. I don't pray to feel secure, I pray to know more of God and myself...to become more self-observant and understand more of how I can submit my body and mind to my spirit, and my spirit in turn to Christ. It's not always a nice experience, but I feel that I have grown in wisdom from it.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 15, 2009 23:34:51 GMT -5
Since "human logic" was brought up (and I missed it), the concept of a God is not illogical.
If I come across an iPod in the woods, I'm not going to assume that nature coughed it up. Even a savage would know that it had a designer. That's how I look at the world and it's beginning.
Sure, evolution could have played its part, but in the end you're left wondering what kicked the process off. You can't get something from nothing without denying science itself.
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Post by Brent on Sept 15, 2009 23:35:22 GMT -5
why do you pray you seem like an incredibly intelligent and logical person, every time you post your class schedule my brain hurts but seriously why should I believe in prayer As before, I can't make you believe in any of it other than experiencing it for yourself. I don't pray to feel secure, I pray to know more of God and myself...to become more self-observant and understand more of how I can submit my body and mind to my spirit, and my spirit in turn to Christ. It's not always a nice experience, but I feel that I have grown in wisdom from it. We're arguing definitions, but that does sound like security to me. You want to learn more about God to become more secure mentally and spiritually.
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Post by Brent on Sept 15, 2009 23:36:19 GMT -5
Since "human logic" was brought up (and I missed it), the concept of a God is not illogical. If I come across an iPod in the woods, I'm not going to assume that nature coughed it up. Even a savage would know that it had a designer. That's how I look at the world and it's beginning. Sure, evolution could have played its part, but in the end you're left wondering what kicked the process off. You can't get something from nothing without denying science itself. Are you seriously using the watchmaker arugment? Give me a break.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 15, 2009 23:37:06 GMT -5
Cool. "Give me a break" wins arguments! ;D
Disarm it, buddy.
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Post by Scott on Sept 15, 2009 23:38:09 GMT -5
If that's what you mean by security, then sure. Comfort, no.
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Post by Brent on Sept 15, 2009 23:39:04 GMT -5
Cool. "Give me a break" wins arguments! ;D Disarm it, buddy. Get good arguments, buddy. I'm not wasting my time with watchmaker arguings want to learn? Wiki watchmaker and see how much it fails. Cheers.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 15, 2009 23:43:21 GMT -5
Dude, I don't know how prideful you are, but I know that there are thousands of people out there smarter than me. If we're to direct our arguments to other sources (good lord, not wiki, pl0x!!11) we'd get absolutely no where very, very, very slowly.
I'm talking snail.
I've watched great Atheists battle great Theists, and have watched both sides win in different circumstances. If you want to prove what you believe is right on these forums, take up your own beliefs and post them from your own fingertips. Otherwise, you have none of my respect other than merely being a human.
(You're not a robot are you?)
Cheerio, my good chap, ol' matey, ol' pal.
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Post by Brent on Sept 15, 2009 23:47:37 GMT -5
I'd bet my life savings that every "battle" you've seen has boiled down to faith vs. logic.
Which is why I do not like arguing things which have been argued since the dawn of philosophy.
I don't have any beliefs, I do not have faith in anything that isn't reality.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 15, 2009 23:53:57 GMT -5
I'd bet my life savings that every "battle" you've seen has boiled down to faith vs. logic. Surprisingly not. But you can keep your money because I have seen a bit of those. It depends if you are saying, "I is teh soul person who wil b in heven and i say god is in rl. u gotta bllieve." Or arguing that it is logically possible for a deity to exist and whether or not said deity fits the description of The Bible. (Furthermore arguing the validity of the Bible, of course.) If something is possible, it is logical to put your faith in it. If Christianity wasn't logical, I wouldn't be a Christian. Too many people assume Christianity is just "blind leaps of faith" into the dark with nothing other than the promise of some guy in a toga. It isn't. The Bible says nothing of the sort. Same here. But when someone starts something I always get itchy feet to jump in. ...I should wash my feet more often. So you believe reality exists? (Just messing with you.) I respect that, though.
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Post by notavailable on Sept 16, 2009 2:39:06 GMT -5
Christianity =/= Human logic.
Your cute viewpoint is established entirely on your cultural upbringing. It only makes sense to you because it was drilled into you ages 3-6, when your mind was most impressionable. You've never known anything else, why should you believe anything else? If you were brought up in an asian culture where you were told that you must live a life free of indulgence, and spare no opportunity to reject earthly pleasures in hopes of attaining "nirvana", then you'd be walking around in an orange robe with no f**king hair and you wouldn't think a thing of it. You're only as christian as you are american. Or as you are a product of western culture.
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Post by clareabel on Sept 16, 2009 3:42:34 GMT -5
What do you say to those who, say, convert to Christianity from Islam? There are a number in the church I've been in for the last year. I admit that much of my religious background is dependent on my parents' own faith in God, but it doesn't mean it's not true. You can't use the argument that being from a particular background means you follow a certain belief system and therefore you're not believing the truth, because surely some of the previous generation believe in truth? I can't explain compellingly why I know God is real without using any of Brent's hated "personal experience", but I do know that He is real. I've seen things happen that cannot be explained by human logic.
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Post by alastairjohnjack on Sept 16, 2009 4:44:29 GMT -5
I've seen things happen that cannot be explained by human logic. This. Christianity =/= Human logic. LOL. More like LOGIC =/= HUMANS, I hope that's a more logical comparision.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 16, 2009 6:43:04 GMT -5
Your cute viewpoint is established entirely on your cultural upbringing. It only makes sense to you because it was drilled into you ages 3-6, when your mind was most impressionable. You've never known anything else, why should you believe anything else? If you were brought up in an asian culture where you were told that you must live a life free of indulgence, and spare no opportunity to reject earthly pleasures in hopes of attaining "nirvana", then you'd be walking around in an orange robe with no f**king hair and you wouldn't think a thing of it. You're only as christian as you are american. Or as you are a product of western culture. My parents have always been baptists--and they raised me as such. As I've grown, however, I've gone through different belief systems ranging from Atheism to Hypercalvinism to Animalism. (Heck, I even tickled the idea of being an Odin worshiper once.) I know people from China personally who have been raised Buddhists, and though forbidden by the culture and the government to be otherwise, have become Christians. "It only makes sense to you because of your cultural upbringing..." Forget to pay your brain-bill lately? What is that supposed to even mean? If a child was raised in a home that constantly taught and raised children under the teaching of famous psychologists, mathematicians, etc... where logic was stressed and human reason delved into on a daily bases... would everything they say "only make sense to them?" Are you suggesting that whatever it is they learned was wrong SIMPLY because they were taught it? Is everything taught wrong? You have a point, though... one's surroundings does (or I think it does) play a role in what he or she believes. However, just because something doesn't come about in a nice shiny poof of unexplained, lemon-scented loveliness, it doesn't mean it can't be God's hand at work. The God of the Bible (assuming he exists) can mold his creation in any way he wants to---with the culture you grew up in, with nature, with a spiritual experience, with a banana, etc... Just because it's obvious why someone is someway doesn't automatically mean, "Zomgsh I understandz an esplain dat like a smrt prson!! it can't be tehn godz!!11" Come on. Lets put on our big boy pants. CLOUDS =/= CIRCUS BEARS ICECREAM = INTERNET PORN I can do it too! Without any explanation or logical backup to my argument, I can intelligently participate in this very nice discussion by simply stating things as if they're facts. The Earth... is a giant pizza. Yum! But I'll stick with the discussion. Atheism =/= Smart. Do I win?
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Post by Scott on Sept 16, 2009 7:33:16 GMT -5
Christianity =/= Human logic. Your cute viewpoint is established entirely on your cultural upbringing. It only makes sense to you because it was drilled into you ages 3-6, when your mind was most impressionable. You've never known anything else, why should you believe anything else? If you were brought up in an asian culture where you were told that you must live a life free of indulgence, and spare no opportunity to reject earthly pleasures in hopes of attaining "nirvana", then you'd be walking around in an orange robe with no f**king hair and you wouldn't think a thing of it. You're only as christian as you are american. Or as you are a product of western culture. And yet the church spreads rapidly in China.
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