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Post by Van Zan on Sept 16, 2009 21:34:23 GMT -5
I'm brown. I win the not part of a paradigm game.
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Post by Brent on Sept 16, 2009 21:51:28 GMT -5
Pretty sure the majority of Americans are Theist, and a majority of that majority is Christian. Don't be stupid. The internet is the place where non-theists dwell, which is why it may seem like there's rebellion. Once again, you are sort of throwing out stuff that has little to no ground. I see where you're coming from, and maybe we're misunderstanding because I believe that there's a difference between being a christian and claiming that you're one. I've got friends who drink, smoke weed, curse, and have premarital sex... and they claim they're Christians. I'm not one to judge them, but I think that the polls on the subject are flawed. Too many people claim to be Christians who aren't. Aside that point, I also think that Atheism is a belief that is catching on like wildfire in America. I'm in the bloody Bible Belt and I have more Atheist friends than Christians. I'm also ignoring your internet comment about blah blah non-theists dwell on the blah wah wah. Yeah, don't say crap like that. You know that you have no clue about the primary religion of THE INTERNET. C'mon now. And I believe that you are assuming that there are contradictions when they aren't actually any there. One reason I believe this is because you've yet to list these contradictions. Second reason, I've researched contradictions I think I've found, and have read different essays and books on them. Every contradiction is easily explained and accounted for. Translating from Greek/Hebrew into English is not going to come about without mistakes. Christianity is grounded in just as much faith as Atheism. This, too, is completely inarguable. Our knowledge only goes BACK so far in Atheism, our knowledge only reaches so HIGH in Theism. There is definitely an aspect of faith. Faith does not automatically label something as illogical. Most of the greatest Atheist minds of our generation have stated that we simply do not know how our universe started--they have to deny their own science and believe that, somehow, something came from nothing. Theists, in this case, are the more logical of the two. They see that there had to be a beginning, they see that science states that something cannot come from nothing, thus we come to the conclusion that for anything to exist, something ALWAYS had to exist. Something eternal. For me personally, I believe this something is the God of the Bible. Go ahead an ignore the internet part. It's simple demographics, go on youtube, the largest streaming video website, and tell me the ratio of non-thiest to theist videomakers. Go on any non-Christian forum and tell me the ratio. You're talking out of your ass again. As for the contradictions, only a closeminded person would think the bible is contradiction free. I've posted lists before but they're disregarded in a fallicious way. Saying the person isn't qualified, etc. Typical awful arguments No s**t sherlock, Athiesm is faith based. Which is why I'm agnostic.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 16, 2009 22:07:59 GMT -5
WEED IS EVIL CUSSING IS EVIL DRINKING IS EVIL SEX IS EVIL that is where you fail That is why I said I wasn't judging their Christianity. I was describing their normal actions that, to those who are in possession of working brain, often conflict with Biblical principles. The description was used to make a point about people's claims not meeting up with their actions. I can say I'm a monkey all day long, but until I get in the dirt and start hollering, scratching and eating bugs out of your hair, my words shouldn't be taken too seriously. Go ahead an ignore the internet part. It's simple demographics, go on youtube, the largest streaming video website, and tell me the ratio of non-thiest to theist videomakers. Go on any non-Christian forum and tell me the ratio. Oh! I'm sorry, maestro. Your original post said "The Internet." Not "Strictly Youtube and Non-Christian Forums." You should tell me before you take a whiplashing left turn down straw-man road. I'm assuming that's a good thing. Thank you. Love ya! <3 Which is why I stated (twice, I believe. But who's counting?) That the Bible, indeed, has contradictions. I even gave an example. What's more important is that I explained the contradiction and how such a thing can come about due to human error. Because I recall you saying that "a perfect god" wouldn't err. Etc, etc. I'm doing a lot of recalling and my memory is like a goldfish. So correct me if I'm waddling around like grandpa talking about 'Nam and how good the cheesecake was. Yeah, I know what you mean. I can't stand awful arguments. I'm not sure what your deal is with "typical" stuff, though. I'm seeing a pattern here. Well dang man, I wish you told me that sooner. I'd give you a bro hug, but there's a computer in my way. Agnostics I completely understand... I came pretty close to being one myself. In all honesty, if I ever walked across a convincing argument about the invalidity of the Bible, I'd probably jump in your boat. I've yet to find one, however.
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Post by Brent on Sept 16, 2009 22:34:33 GMT -5
Last time I checked youtube and internet forums are two major forms of online communication for our age group.
And if you haven't found any invalidity in the Bible by now, you're either not looking hard enough, or you're just using the same bulls**t translation argument.
It's honestly the most simple of things you're completely ignoring.
Here's one, ONE simple contradiction:
The Lord is good to all. - Psalm 145:6
I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7
An all good god cannot be evil in any way. I've beaten this argument to death with other forum members, if you want to read more look through the archives.
The bottom line is you either have faith in God or you don't. I cannot beieve in a being we cannot completely comprehend, all I have to go by is simple human logic. Something all good cannot be evil. Simple.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 16, 2009 22:57:35 GMT -5
Last time I checked youtube and internet forums are two major forms of online communication for our age group. Woah! Another left turn. So now we're talking about only "our age group," as opposed to the entire internet. Yep. What? I already forgot what we were talking about there. I'll just say you won that one. My neck can only handle so much. Now, now. The translation argument is actually valid in a lot of "Biblical errors." But if you're assuming it's an argument one uses against every "contradiction," yeah, it would be. But it isn't. I'd be beaten to death against a lousy claim like that too. I'd be too busy opening and closing my mouth like a dying fish trying to think of a logical way to explain to you that those two verses aren't contradicting themselves at all. Then, in the midst of my fish-like state, you'd hit me in the head with a shovel or something. Isaiah 45:7 is a personal favorite verse of mine. As a Calvinist, I like to hit the common "Armenian Christian" with it just to shake things up a bit. The verse is dealing with God's total sovereignty. You're going to KILL me for saying this (you provided the verse, mkay?). But the book of Isaiah was written in Hebrew. (Which was translated into English---dahurr.) The term "evil" is one translation (I think it is KJV) from Hebrew into English. Hebrew is a rich language and many words have a wide variety of meanings. Originally, the Hebrew verse said "blah, blah, blah, blah, ra', blah blah..." ra' is the opposite of shalom, which means peace. Opposite of peace? Hmm, could be evil, I guess. Could mean earthquakes too, I guess. Here's five English translations on the verse: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things (KJV).
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things (NKJV).
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things (NIV).
The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these (NASB).
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who does all these things (RSV).Also you have to take the verse into context. The particular passage is talking about God's sovereign hand in all things. Including using pagan rulers to fulfill his ultimate purpose. It especially serves as a verse of encouragement to the Christian when he or she is going through dark times. It reminds us that God has a plan in it all. Contradiction? Hardly. Hmm, well. I'll buy that for now. The Bible does not say that the all-good God is evil. But as for believing in something we cannot completely comprehend is a way of life for the common human. Evolutionists cannot fully comprehend the beginning of life, and yet they believe in it. The astronomer cannot comprehend the vast stretches of space, and yet he believes that billions of galaxies exist. Some girl told me that I have trillions of dust mites on my bed the other day. Kinda freaked me out, but I believe it despite the fact it's not the easiest thing to comprehend. We've got microscopes to see that they're there, but what about 200 years ago? The common man would laugh at you and not believe it...how could they? And yet, time has proven it to be true. Not comprehending something is not the best reason for not believing something. /twocents
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 16, 2009 23:03:44 GMT -5
^over complicating / trying too hard / excessive use of words
Isaiah 45:7 is an example of God's wrath.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 16, 2009 23:09:56 GMT -5
^Lazy much?
I do what I can to get my point across. Which, in some cases, requires the use of more than 6 words.
And yes, God's wrath has a part to play in that verse.
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Post by Brent on Sept 16, 2009 23:11:38 GMT -5
Your internet argument with me has developed into one gigantic strawman, you seem unable to comprehend a simple sentence. I said the internet is a place non-theists dwell, which is kind of hard to argue against. Yet you have, and your jackassery levels have skyrocketed. Everytime I post something you just have some "witty" and smug interjection. You're a complete douche, Feverstone.
Ad hominems aside, your arguments are seemingly good, but ultimately fall flat. Hebrew aside, evil exists. you cannot tell me this world does not contain evil.
If you would like to go ahead and make your already patented condescending remarks, I don't care any more enough to respond to your posts.
1.If a perfectly good god exists, then there is no evil in the world. 2.There is evil in the world. 3.Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist
there's the argument I support, the problem of evil. If you would like to refute that argument, go ahead and try. I've heard it all from theists with more intellect than you.
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Post by Fyacin on Sept 16, 2009 23:22:29 GMT -5
What do you think the sacrifice of Jesus was for? What do you think our faith is for? If God just wiped a hand ignored all the sins of everyone how could he still be good and just? His plan will eliminate evil, but because of our fall we have to suffer consequences. You should be thankful that God is merciful and graceful enough to let you live and not have wiped out all of humanity (Christians most certainly included).
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Post by feverstone on Sept 16, 2009 23:25:14 GMT -5
Your internet argument with me has developed into one gigantic strawman, you seem unable to comprehend a simple sentence. I said the internet is a place non-theists dwell, which is kind of hard to argue against. My point was that you cannot know that by simply waltzing over to Youtube. The Internet is bigger than you think. 73% of Americans use the Internet. Roughly 86% of Americans claim to be Christians. You can do the math and see that the Internet isn't an all-nighter pagan party. I sincerely apologize...honestly. I was just trying to make the conversation more light because otherwise I get overly passionate and start flying off the handle (you do NOT want to see me typing in all caps.) I'm not trying to be a smug douche or put you or anyone else down. When I throw out some random thing about cheesecake or how Marxism really isn't that bad of an idea, just ignore me. Indeed it does. And I have my own little theory about the existence of evil and where it came from. Scientifically if there is something, there is the lack of something. There is God, he is good, he created reality, he created man with free will...man, on his own, delved into the lack of God. Ran away and hid from him. The lack of God IS evil. The lack of something doesn't necessarily have to be created. And I thought we could make beautiful music together. See above at "lack of good = evil" theory. --- Well, if you're leaving, then thanks for taking time to discuss this. Good stuff, good thoughts. Gatorades on me! -F.
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Post by Josh on Sept 16, 2009 23:28:59 GMT -5
Eww gatorade, I want kool aids.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 16, 2009 23:32:00 GMT -5
Kool Ad and goldfish.
Dang, that brings back memories.
...horrible, horrible memories.
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Post by Jeremy on Sept 16, 2009 23:32:15 GMT -5
Poweraid.
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Post by feverstone on Sept 16, 2009 23:57:43 GMT -5
^Now we're talkin'!
*does the Seminole chop*
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Post by Paul on Sept 16, 2009 23:57:55 GMT -5
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